Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Local and state officials entered the temple of a secretive polygamist sect late Saturday, said lawmen blockading the road to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
The action comes hours after local prosecutors said officials were preparing for the worst because a group of FLDS members were resisting efforts to search the structure.
The Texas Department of Public Safety trooper and Schleicher County sheriff’s deputy confirmed that officials have entered the temple but said they had no word on whether anything occurred in the effort.
The incursion into the temple caps the three-day saga of the state’s Child Protective Services agency removing at least 183 women and children from the YFZ Ranch since Friday afternoon. Eighteen girls have been placed in state custody since a 16-year-old told authorities she was married to a 50-year-old man and had given birth to his child.
Saturday evening, ambulances were brought in, said Allison Palmer, who as first assistant 51st District attorney, would prosecute any felony crimes uncovered as part of the investigation inside the compound.
“In preparing for entry to the temple, law enforcement is preparing for the worst,” Palmer said Saturday evening. They want to have “medical personnel on hand in case this were to go in a way that no one wants.”
Apparently as a result of action Saturday night at the ranch, about 10:15 p.m. Saturday, a Schleicher County school bus unloaded another group of at least a dozen more women and children from the compound.
Although members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, have provided varying degrees of cooperation to the sheriff’s deputies and Texas Rangers searching the compound, all cooperation stopped once authorities tried to search the gleaming white temple that towers over the West Texas scrub, Palmer said.
“There may be those who would oppose (entry) by placing themselves between law enforcement and the place of worship,” Palmer said Saturday afternoon. “If an agreement cannot be reached … law enforcement will have to — as gently and peaceably as possible — make entry into that place.”
Sect members consider the temple, dedicated by then-leader of the sect Warren Jeffs in January 2005 and finished many months later, off-limits to those who are not FLDS members, said Palmer, who prosecutes felony cases in Schleicher County.
Palmer said she didn’t know the size or makeup of the group inside the temple.
The earlier refusal to provide access was even more disconcerting because CPS investigators have yet to identify the 16-year-old girl or her roughly 8-month-old baby among the dozens removed from the compound, Palmer said.
“Anytime someone says, ‘Don’t look here,’” she said, “it makes you concerned that’s exactly where you need to look.”
The girl told authorities in two separate phone calls a day apart that she was married to a 50-year-old man, Dale Barlow, who had fathered her child, Palmer said.
The joint raid included the Texas Rangers, CPS, Schleicher County and Tom Green County sheriff’s deputies and game wardens from the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife.
Although CPS and Department of Public Safety officials have described the compound’s residents as cooperative, Palmer disagreed.
“Things have been a little tense, a little volatile,” she said.
Authorities removed 52 children Friday afternoon and 131 women and children overnight Friday. About 40 of the children are boys, said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.
No further children have been taken into state custody since Friday, when 18 girls were judged to have been abused or be at imminent risk for abuse. CPS has found foster homes for the girls, Meisner said, and will place them after concluding its investigation.
Meisner declined to comment on the fate of the 119 other children and said authorities were still searching the ranch for others Saturday evening.
“They’re in the process of looking,” she said. “They’re literally about halfway through.”
I already answered this--at least in part--in post #1245. It doesn't fully address the "God gave" part (see #1245 for how I partially addressed that)...but as for whether these women were "wives" or concubines, here's what I said in post #1245:
(a) you don't know Hebrew; and (b) you've isolated 2 Sam 12 from 2 Sam 16 (& possibly 2 Sam 6). But certainly even if we agree on what to call these women, 2 Sam 12:8 is still troublesome.
Allow me to explain: First of all the Hebrew word used of these women in 2 Sam 12 is "issah"--which can mean either woman or wife and is even used in one verse in Judges for "concubine." Secondly, Nathan prophesies, among other things, that the Lord is going to take these women and give them to one who is close to you--lying with them in broad daylight. (2 Sam. 12:11)
Now when did this prophesy come to fruition? 2 Sam. 16:21-22 says that Ahithophel tells David's son, Absalom, to "Lie with your father's concubines...So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he lay with his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."
The word here for "concubines" is the Hebrew word pileges.
So, my main point? Simply put, in context, these women are "concubines." [modern-day of equivalent of sexual cohabitors or mistresses] (These women were perhaps even the "slave girls" referenced in 2 Sam. 6:22.)
Biblical support:
(1) 2 Sam. 16:21-22 identifies these women as "concubines."
(2) The Hebrew word used in 2 Sam. 12 to describe these same women is Issah--which can mean "woman" & is used in Judges 19:26 to mean "concubine." In fact, Issah is even used in Gen 7:2 to describe the female mate of animals. [So while it is at times used in an endearing way (like "bride" in Gen 29:21 and Deut. 20:7), it isn't consisently the case.]
(3) When David's wife, Michal was upset with David for disrobing in the sight of slave girls (2 Sam. 6:20), the implication in 2 Sam. 6:23 is that they may not have slept together from that point onward...And David says then, "I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor." (2 Sam. 6:22) It's possible here that David is projecting that he will choose to sleep with slave girls rather than his wife...these slave girls will "honor" him--something his wife isn't doing (she accused him of public vulgarity)--but in doing so, he is "humiliating himself in his own eyes" in engaging in an "undignified" manner.
Unheard of? (No) "Common"...not necessarily--at least in most parts of the country. See F. Cott, "Young Women in the Second Great Awakening in New England," Feminist Studies 3 (1975): 16. Larkin writes, "American women began to marry in their late teens; around different parts of the United States the average age of marriage varied from nineteen to twenty."
See my post #1579, which shows that the "problem" of polygamy--including mainstream 19th century polygamy-- does and did have much to do with both dirty old LDS men and dirty young LDS men (men in their late 30s or into their 40s marrying girls 14, 15, 16). Either way, the age spans were lopsided with men from one generation marrying underaged girls from the next generation. (And please don't try the lame excuse that there weren't enough men to go around; the problem was the opposite).
Many of you have turned this horrific and evil display of the RLDS standoff and rescuing of these girls, into your own personal cutting boards against the LDS faith. This is what disgusts me. Say what you want back, but I must speak out.
I am a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, sometimes called Mormons, but I have my own connection to the FLDS that none of you know about, until now. I share this at my own risk, but I do not care. I want to point out to you just how repugnant and evil this FLDS group is, and how they are in no way practicing the LDS faith, now, nor the way it was done over a hundred years ago when the LDS abandoned the practice.
My great grandmother was sucked into the Shortcreek bunch after moving to Southern Utah from Montana. She married a “Carling”, for which the city cemetery is named. I had other family that tried to dissuade her and her chosen lifestyle, but she would not. When my grandmother was a early teen, she escaped the very evil and repressive lifestyle of these people with the help of other family. She became LDS, and forever turned her back on her mother and her “chosen” faith. I am forever grateful to her. She was one of the most Christian women to ever walk this earth, and I miss her dearly.
My parents stopped in Short Creek (Colorado City and Hilldale by today's names) once when I was a kid, to meet my Dad's grandmother. The spirit she gave off was not something I ever want to experience again. I would call it pure evil. My parents loaded us up and left, and never returned.
In the course of my employment for a TV news outlet, I have been back several times, and spent nearly a month covering the Warren Jeffs trial in St. George. I had to listen to the testimony of those proceedings day in and day out. It was repugnant. These people are evil, pure and simple. There are so many bad things about their perversions, wither it's welfare fraud, child abandonment, child labor, sexual perversions, etc. It's really messed up.
Now, comparing that to the faith of my fathers is a whole different animal. Most of you just love to compare Warren Jeffs to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. There is not can be any comparison.
I've defended the principle of biblical polygamy on this thread because I know that God's ancient prophets were chosen by him. God himself calls Abraham His prophet, and we know that they were righteous, not adulterers. In fact, just a few verses after Moses writes down the 10 commandments, there is provisions in the law for 2nd wives. (Exodus 21:10) as well as other references like Deuteronomy 21:15 where 2nd wives are to be treated fairly, etc. It's odd to us, but it was part of life for them. We don't know all the particulars, but we know they were men of God and His chosen prophets.
Now, as to the the practice of plural marriage for a 50 year period of time in the 1800’s by the LDS Church... it has no basis in reality to that of the FLDS. Those who did what Jeffs people are doing were excommunicated, people practicing sexual perversions in the name of the church were excommunicated by Joseph and Brigham. The practice was a hard thing for them to do, these were puritans seeking religious liberty, but they but they did so out of obedience. Like it or not, it was a choice, and only a small percentage were deemed faithful enough to live the law, for lasciviousness was not tolerated. In fact, even known Anti Mormon “exposer” John C. Bennett, who started the Nauvoo Expositor, was excommunicated by Joseph for his serial infidelities and his perverted practices about the principle.
Bernard Shaw once said:
“Now nothing can be more idle, nothing more frivolous, than to imagine that this polygamy had anything to do with personal licentiousness. If Joseph Smith had proposed to the Latter-day Saints that they should live licentious lives, they would have rushed on him and probably anticipated their pious neighbors who presently shot him.”
One more, this by Fawn Brodie, an Anti Mormon, a critical biographer of Joseph Smith and a recognized expert on Smith, admitted that polygamy in Joseph’s mind was not about anything other than restoring the Biblical practice and completing a “restoration of all things.”
Many of you have taken it upon yourselves to be Lawyer, Judge and executioner of Joseph Smith. That is your right, but it is also my right to proclaim that He was a prophet of God, and restored the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I hope some of you will read this. It's a pretty fair and in-depth explanation of why the LDS Church practiced polygamy. This is from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.
Seven...I posted the following ahead of your post (see #1579): Thomas Chamberlain II actually double-married two 17 yo on the same date in 1873...and then added on a 15 yo (Ann Carling) in 1875 followed by her sister--also 15--three years later.
Chamberlain had 6 wives & had children with all six wives--with Ann & Ellen A. Carling being the middle two. Both were aged 15. Now were these underaged plural wives conducted in the era of fLDS? (No). Those marriages were carried out in the mainstream Mormon polygamous era--1875 and 1878. My point? As you can see from the examples given in post #1,579, underage plural wives was by no means simply a 20th & 21st century fLDS phenomenon. (They actually learned the practice from their parents & grandparents--mainstream Mormons).
In fact, just a few verses after Moses writes down the 10 commandments, there is provisions in the law for 2nd wives. (Exodus 21:10) as well as other references like Deuteronomy 21:15 where 2nd wives are to be treated fairly, etc. It's odd to us, but it was part of life for them.
Ex. 21:10 is right smack dab in the middle of the passage (Ex 21:7-11) talking about the treatment of slaves. So are you then saying that Ex. 21:10 condones & glorifies polygamy? If so, then you need to be consistent. You need to say: "Sevenbak thinks Ex. 21:10 condones & glorifies polygamy just like Sevenbak think Ex. 21:7-11 condones & glorifies slavery." Are you consistent? Would that indeed be your conclusion then?
The fact is, even tho Ex. 21:7-11 talks about a standard of treatment for slavery, it goes on in v. 16 to condemn kidnapping for slavery. You highlight Dt. 21:15, but you intentionally neglect Deut 17:17,which says: "He MUST NOT take many wives, or his heart will be led astray."
I've defended the principle of biblical polygamy on this thread because I know that God's ancient prophets were chosen by him. God himself calls Abraham His prophet, and we know that they were righteous, not adulterers.
Sorry, if what you say is true, that "God's ancient prophets...were righteous, not adulterers," then do you also get on a false high horse & claim that David's relationship with Bathsheba was not "adultery?" (I guess since you've already become an apologist for Abraham's sexual relationships with servant girls/concubines--who were NOT wives & are NEVER identified in the Bible as such, you might as well become an apologist for David's open adultery with Bathsheba & claim to all of us that David was 100% righteous & didn't commit adultery). Are you consistent?
Why can’t the women have multiple husbands too?
If plural marriage was such an ungodly act according to you Colofornian, how could Abraham still remain a prophet of God, how was Abraham able to receive a Covenant from the Lord for the family of Issac and also received a Covanant for the children of Ishmael.
Offering of Isaac and renewal of the covenant and blessings (Gen. 22). (Ishmael Gen. 17.)
FLDS woman in news video.
Well, she doesn't have the right to sell her 13 year old girls into rape and sexually slavery as a price for her thinking she won't go to hell if she complies - and she just doesn't get that.
Good post, all of it - but your words here resonate with me.
This nation is still suffering and paying a terrible price for the evil that Joseph Smith brought into America because of his own perverted lusts.
“Later that night, John was attacked by a bear...”
Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation. It includes possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense. In contemporary usage “critical” has a certain negative connotation that does not apply in the present case. Though the term “analytical thinking” may seem to convey the idea more accurately, critical thinking clearly involves synthesis, evaluation, and reconstruction of thinking, in addition to analysis.
Critical thinkers gather information from all senses, verbal and/or written expressions, reflection, observation, experience and reasoning. Critical thinking has its basis in intellectual criteria that go beyond subject-matter divisions and which include: clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, logic, significance and fairness.
Where did RESTY cut & paste THIS from?
She SURE did NOT type it herself!
/ Polygamy can be a beautiful thing. <--- it is THIS that "didn't help"!!
Unlike your silence about PRESBYTERIANISM, I'm SURE that you will tell us just WHAT makes this a "Fake, Phony, Fraud organization" - RIGHT??
Do you REALIZE how hollow you sound about ANSWERING QUESTIONS??
If you are going to 'speak out'; at LEAST get the Organizations straight!!
--FreudDude(Sometimes a cigar...)
We'd rather read it straight from the source; WITHOUT the spin; thank you.
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