Chavez to buy up Russian subs

TVNZ.co.nz ^ | Apr 4, 2008 9:33 PM | Reuters

[PapaBear3625]

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez may sign a contract for four Russian diesel submarines on a visit to Moscow next month, the Kommersant daily has reported, citing unidentified officials.

Chavez has been invited to the May inauguration of Dmitry Medvedev as Russian president.

If he takes up the invitation, the Venezuelan leader may use the opportunity to sign a contract to buy four Kilo-class diesel submarines agreed to at the start of this year, the paper said.

Kommersant said the submarine contract, worth about $1 billion ($1.27 billion), had been set to be signed in February.

Venezuela is seeking a loan of about $800 million ($1.02 billion) from a Russian bank, probably from Russia's official debt agent, Vneshekonombank, for some of the arms purchases, the paper said, adding that the loan had yet to be agreed.

Officials at Venezuela's Moscow embassy were not immediately available for comment on the report. A spokesman for Russia's state arms exporter could not be reached for comment and the foreign ministry declined to comment.

The paper said Venezuela also wants to buy 12 Ilyushin Il-76 military transport aircraft while Russia is interested in selling Caracas its new generation Sukhoi Su-35 fighters, which are still being tested.

Venezuela is Russia's fourth biggest arms buyer after China, India and Algeria.

Chavez, a socialist and fierce US critic, has made regular visits to Russia, the world's second biggest oil exporter, and has praised President Vladimir Putin for standing up to the United States.

Russia is seeking to boost arms exports to Latin America as some of its traditional customers - such as India - express concerns over late deliveries and price rises for its arms.

Some of Moscow's military technology has not been updated since the Cold War and it has been falling behind Western competitors, particularly in the area of electronics, military analysts say.

The Kilo-class submarine, known in Russia as Project 636, has a submerged displacement of about 4,000 tons and is considered to be one of the quietest diesel submarines in the world. It carries a total of eighteen torpedoes.

[Hacklehead]

They’ll make real nice artifical reefs after about 10 minutes into a confrontation with the US Navy.

[PapaBear3625]

That’s a real stretch. Do you really believe we can’t track every move of a diesel powered submarine? Are they any match for a nuclear-powered U.S. hunter-killer?

The TOTAL US attack submarine fleet is 47 Los Angeles-class, 3 Seawolf class, and 4 Virginia class -- a total of 54 subs

Do we have the resources to be tracking every diesel sub in the world? Chavez is getting his diesels for $250M each. A Virginia-class nuke sub is $2.3B.

Now add in China's buildup, Iran, North Korea, and we may find ourselves unable to find the money to keep enough of our fancy subs at sea to be able to track everything our enemies can send out

[PapaBear3625]

While it may be quiet for a diesel compared to nukes it is the equivalent of walking around banging a pot with a spoon.

When running submerged on electric power, a diesel can be MORE quiet than a nuke sub

[Eurale]

“Do we have the resources to be tracking every diesel sub in the world? Chavez is getting his diesels for $250M each. A Virginia-class nuke sub is $2.3B. Now add in China’s buildup, Iran, North Korea, and we may find ourselves unable to find the money to keep enough of our fancy subs at sea to be able to track everything our enemies can send out.”

OK, I give up. You’re right. Chavez will sink our fleet of cruise ships, and the U.S. Navy will not be able to stop him. Then, emboldened by destroying our travel industry, he’ll amass a flotilla of Venezuelan, Chinese, Russian and North Korean subs that will destroy the United States; float up the Potomac and seize D.C.; and, force President Obama to hand over America to Venezuala.

[Kenny Bunk]

We should really fear those dreaded diesels!

Diesel electrics are the quietest, especially when painted with that rubber paint submarine yachtsmen use. They are so quiet that CHICOM diesels have been known to sneak into USN formations before being detected!

But why Venezuela would need subs is beyond me. Their coast is the Caribbean and to leave for the Atlantic or Pacific would require them to get really noticed! They could easily cut off tanker shipments to Aruba and Trinidad, but then that would cost Chavez a lot of money.

Waste of air, that guy. Too bad we can't take him out.

[VaFederalist]

It is one thing to have 4 subs it is quite another to have 4 operational, trained, combat ready warships.

Getting a crew trained and maintaining the material status of the boat are hugely expensive of both time & money. I did not see if these would be new construction or retreads that have been tied to a pier for a while. If retreads, it is likely that one will become a parts depot for the other three.

Given all this I would imagine the most that they could use at one time would be two operational boats.

[Polybius]

We should really fear those dreaded diesels! Does he plan to shoot tamale torpedo’s?

Actually, we should dread diesel-electric submarines and we do.

The submarine's greatest asset is stealth and a submarine gets stealth from being quiet. The combustion engine powers a diesel-electric submarine on the surface but, underwater, it is powered by the electric batteries and that propulsion is very quiet.

Therefore, diesel-electric submarines presents a very serious challenge to anti-submarine warfare capabilities.

Hunting for quiet diesel submarines in the shallow waters of the littorals is akin to trying to identify the sound of a single car engine in the din of a major city

****

Navy planners anticipate that adversaries will try to deny U.S. forces access to key strategic coastal areas by deploying quiet diesel-electric submarines. These hard-to-detect boats would make it difficult for U.S. ships to move around freely without exposing themselves to an enemy torpedo shot.

[Eurale]

Hey! I already conceded victory to Venezuela. What else do you want? It’s clear to me now that the most powerful navy in the world will be brought to its knees by these mighty subs, And, we’ll all be forced to lick the boots of our Venezuelan overlords. There. Feel better now?

[chilepepper]

what needs to be watched is *who* actually crews these subs -- watch for a huge number or Russian "training instructors" manning these pigboats, supplemented with Venezuelan and Cuban swabbies as cooks.

basically, this is just a way for Russia (USSRv2.0) to get a military base in the western hemisphere.

I suspect Russian "training instructors" will also end up flying the Sukhois Hugito is buying...

James Monroe, where are you?

[MartinStyles]

I really hate to think that these stupid Russians are pulling this junk again.

I can see flat out selling stuff, we do that to saudis who are our own enemies even.. But why push it this much. Oh well.

[agere_contra]

Modern diesels are significant threats - they have to be taken seriously. But yeah I think you get that now.

Anyway Chavez isn’t buying modern diesels, he’s buying yesterday’s subs so they just require caution and robust ROE.

I say ROE because half the time a chicom sub turns up in the middle of a flotilla is because no-ones allowed to sink them.

[chilepepper]

as someone who was in the business, i'm afraid you are way off base.

there are no "diesel" submarines - there are "diesel-electric" submarines, and by their very nature electric motors are much quieter than the reactor coolant pumps on any bubblehead or los angeles class or even the newer stuff (of which we have very few in any case).

another name for someone who underestimates his adversary is...

loser!

[ontap]

While that might be true running on battery power is extremely limited if you are trying to be stealthy. The vast majority of the time you will be under diesel power so your position is either know right before you submerge are directly after you have to surface. Either way your goose is cooked if you are dealing with a nuke. By the way the stealthiness of a sub has as much to do with the crew as the sub. Some how I doubt a Venezuelan crew is going to rate that high.

[ontap]

See post #33! Not underestimating anything or anyone.

[PapaBear3625]

OK, I give up. You’re right. Chavez will sink our fleet of cruise ships, and the U.S. Navy will not be able to stop him. Then, emboldened by destroying our travel industry, he’ll amass a flotilla of Venezuelan, Chinese, Russian and North Korean subs that will destroy the United States; float up the Potomac and seize D.C.; and, force President Obama to hand over America to Venezuala.

The point I'm making is that nutcase Chavez with diesel subs is at least as great a threat as 19 jihadis with boxcutters.

In other words, I'm taking a counter position to those who are saying there is nothing he can do with 4 subs that we should spend any time being concerned about

[chilepepper]

it is not wise to assume that even a venerable 636 class sub doesn't use modern battery technology, and doesn't have sophisticated schnorkel systems and other upgrades...

its all a game of chess. if the USNavy has to assign assets to the Gulf of Mexico, Florida and the Caribbean, those assets are not available elsewhere.

true story - about 30 years ago I was part of some ASW exercises with a Canadian diesel electric (a 1950's vintage one at that) playing the part of the bad guy.

care to guess who won the exercise?

[dfwgator]

“Andrei, you’ve lost another submarine?”

[Polybius]

We should really fear those dreaded diesels! Does he plan to shoot tamale torpedo’s? .... Eurale

Actually, we should dread diesel-electric submarines and we do.... The submarine's greatest asset is stealth and a submarine gets stealth from being quiet. The combustion engine powers a diesel-electric submarine on the surface but, underwater, it is powered by the electric batteries and that propulsion is very quiet.... Therefore, diesel-electric submarines presents a very serious challenge to anti-submarine warfare capabilities. .... Polybius

Hey! I already conceded victory to Venezuela. What else do you want? It’s clear to me now that the most powerful navy in the world will be brought to its knees by these mighty subs, And, we’ll all be forced to lick the boots of our Venezuelan overlords. There. Feel better now? ....

Is that your way of saying, "I showed my total ignorance of the subject matter under discussion in my initial post and I am now trying to save face"?

Four diesel-electric subs will not bring "the most powerful navy in the world to its knees" but one of them can cause a major tragedy.

At the start of World War II, the German deisel-electric submarine U-47 was able to enter the British naval base at Scapa Flow undetected, torpedo and sink the Royal Navy battleship HMS Royal Oak at its anchorage undetected and escape out of Scapa Flow undetected.

Eight hundred and thirty three men lost their lives with the sinking of HMS Royal Oak.

HMS Royal Oak

[PapaBear3625]

While that might be true running on battery power is extremely limited if you are trying to be stealthy.

The Kilo is listed has having a submerged range of "400 nautical miles (700 km) at 3 knots (6 km/h) submerged" (meaning close to 5 days of submerged running)

One tactic of diesel-electric subs is to stop on the sea floor, consuming little electricity and making very little noise, and wait for any targets to come within range