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Do we need guns at Paradise?
Crosscut ^ | 3/5/08 | Knute Berger

Posted on 03/05/2008 8:36:13 AM PST by XR7

How do you feel about allowing loaded guns in our national parks? Do you feel the need to pack heat while wandering the wildflower meadows of Paradise on Mount Rainier? Are you determined to protect yourself against overly aggressive squirrels at Hurricane Ridge? As you may have heard, Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne has agreed to modify existing rules that prohibit people from carrying loaded weapons in the national parks. The new rules will be ready for public comment by the end of April [289K PDF].

The push comes from the U.S. Senate. Fifty senators added their signatures to a letter by Sen. Michael Crapo of Idaho to Kempthorne (the former Idaho governor of Idaho), pressing him to address the issue. Basically, the proposal seeks to ensure that national park rules match the gun laws of the state in which the park is located. So if Montana allows you to carry a loaded weapon, so should the rangers at Glacier National Park. Currently, you can bring guns into parks, but they have to be unloaded and stowed away. You can't hike the trails or gaze into the Grand Canyon with a firearm on your hip. No using Mount Rushmore for target practice.

A similar proposal in the Senate has stalled a bill that contains, among other things, designation of the Wild Sky Wilderness Area in Washington. Democrats have claimed it is a political ploy, backed by the National Rifle Association, to force Democrats to take a tough gun vote during an election year.

The NRA is happy about Kempthorne's decision to make the rules change. Proponents argue that it is an issue of basic rights and liberties: You have the right to protect yourself wherever you are, consistent with state law. That's what the editorial board of the Idaho Statesman says.

But not all westerners from gun-friendly states draw the same conclusion. Both of Montana's senators back Kempthorne's move, but two anti-guns-in-parks editorials worth reading appeared in Montana papers. One, from the Kalispell Daily Inter Lake, argues that in nearby Glacier National Park there is no crime problem and that guns are a poor defense against the main predator, grizzly bears. Pepper spray is both non-lethal and more effective, since you don't have to hit a bulls-eye to deter a charging griz.

I'm reminded of what a friend in Alaska once told me about guns and grizzlies. I asked him if he carried a .357 magnum with him in the back country, and he said well, if you take one of those as grizzly protection, you better be sure and file off the gunsight. Why? Because that way, he said, it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your ass.

The government has worked for many years to both bring back Glacier's threatened grizzly population but also to establish peaceful co-existence between the park's bears and people by keeping them wary of — and away from — each other. That seems to have worked pretty well. For those who don't want peace with bears, there's always hunting season.

Another op-ed, in the Billings Gazette, by veteran chief park ranger and superintendent Pete Hart, emphasized that the national parks are unique. "They are special places of inspiration and education with a sense of tranquility, history, and beauty," he writes. Current rules, Hart says, don't infringe on gun ownership and allow the parks to be managed as special, protected places with rules that apply to all of them, from urban parks like Independence Hall to Yellowstone. He quotes a longtime National Park Service employee named Bill Brown, who wrote in a 1971 book called Islands of Hope that he sees the national parks "as sanctuaries of nature, as landmarks of history and culture, and as places of contemplation, discovery and adventure."

There seems to be a division between those who see our national parks as special places outside the norm and those who think you should be able to do in a park whatever you do at home. But the parks, by definition, are special and require care and stewardship. They cannot survive without protection, regulation, and sensitive regard. Much of this is already eroding as groups lobby for greater commercialization of the parks and as funds for care and upkeep fail to keep pace with need.

There are a number of areas where I stray from liberal orthodoxy, and one of them is on guns. I am a strong supporter of our constitutional right to keep and bear arms for protection, sport, or any other legal purpose. That said, I think guns can be regulated to a degree. It seems to me that allowing people to carry around loaded guns in our national parks creates more problems than it solves. There is no major crime or outlaw problem, and to the extent that wildlife pose a risk to visitors, well, no wilderness park should promise a risk-free visit.

I think the key word is the one Brown used: sanctuary. Our national parks should be sanctuaries from life as usual. If you can take your hat off in church, you ought to be able to keep your gun in the car when visiting such a place. If that's going to spoil your vacation, go someplace else.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; ccp; concealed; firearms; gunfreezone; guns; nationalpark; parkservice; rkba; secondamendment; selfdefense; unalienable
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To: Brouhaha

If you’re polite to them and spell their name correctly you probably won’t be threatened by a Hells Angel.


61 posted on 03/05/2008 11:37:14 AM PST by jjones9853
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To: XR7
> Pepper spray ... you don't have to hit a bulls-eye to deter a charging griz

The moron author obviously has no clue about the effective use of pepper spray against bears. The sprayer's timing and aim are critical -- to make sure that the bear inhales the spray (or gets it in his eyes), instead of running right through it without harm.

62 posted on 03/05/2008 11:56:20 AM PST by NewJerseyJoe (Rat mantra: "Facts are meaningless! You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!")
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To: Bob

So, you missed the comment made by the person who posted to me? That’s the context with respect to my comment. I’m quite aware that convicted felons already are prohibited by law from possessing firearms, given that I have a number of family members who have been or are now in LE. My post to which you refer was all about sarcasm.


63 posted on 03/05/2008 12:03:04 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: Tex Pete; SoldierDad; The Woim; muawiyah; theBuckwheat; dbwz; Brouhaha

Check out the many thousands of crimes which occur annually in National Parks in Post #56 - and this is only a partial listing!


64 posted on 03/05/2008 12:03:48 PM PST by Gritty (To prevent mass shootings we must ratchet down the firepower available to civilians-Brady Campaign)
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To: Gritty

Yep, makes me want to visit real soon. CCW’s may be what is needed for people to be able to protect themselves in these parks.


65 posted on 03/05/2008 12:08:46 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: XR7
Glacier National Park there is no crime problem and that guns are a poor defense against the main predator, grizzly bears. Pepper spray is both non-lethal and more effective, since you don't have to hit a bulls-eye to deter a charging griz.

Choose wisely Grasshopper!

66 posted on 03/05/2008 12:10:50 PM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution ? 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: SoldierDad
Would you be okay for people with violent felony convictions being allowed to carry concealed or openly displayed firearms? I’m not referring to people who have received parking tickets or speeding tickets here.

No sir! As long as it wasn't some stupid incident where the law was used beyond it’s intent. If you saw your kid being beaten by a group and intervened and was charged with assault lets say. Is that Ok?

My point is that we can not all be perfect. Sometimes you have to do things in life. Now I’m not talking about a thief, rapist of murderer such as son of SAM. I’m talking about an average guy who thought he was doing the right thing or protecting his family. You know along those lines.

The problem is, the law does not recognize that. Especially in Md.

67 posted on 03/05/2008 12:38:44 PM PST by Phantom Patriot (From my cold dead hands.)
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To: Phantom Patriot

With respect to cases such as what you refer to here, I would hope that those are extreme cases of out of control politicians and LE who have gotten away with prosecuting people inappropriately. I would further hope that this is not widespread in practice. And, you are right. If one of my family members were being attacked and their life was in danger, I’d pull out my firearm and use it to defend their life regardless of what consequences I might face legally. I would do that no matter where I lived.


68 posted on 03/05/2008 12:48:19 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: Bob
Soldier Dad was responding to my post. And if you check out post 67 you may understand where I was going.

Point that everyone is missing is that they are making laws so you can’t fart out loud. Let alone defend yourself in some states. Again I’m referencing Md.

I don’t think someone who was placed in a situation inadvertently should have to give up their RTKAB.

Such as with many zealous prosecutors. Everyone should think about this as they are making it easier to make YOU a criminal and then deprive you of your rights.

69 posted on 03/05/2008 12:55:10 PM PST by Phantom Patriot (From my cold dead hands.)
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To: SoldierDad
Thank you sir, that is all I asked. And I do believe this is becoming more widespread. I’m just trying to warn my fellow gun owners to be cautious. This is real.
70 posted on 03/05/2008 12:58:10 PM PST by Phantom Patriot (From my cold dead hands.)
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To: SoldierDad

Please thank your son for me for his service.


71 posted on 03/05/2008 1:02:59 PM PST by Phantom Patriot (From my cold dead hands.)
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To: SoldierDad
My post to which you refer was all about sarcasm.

I think I need to get my sarcasm detector checked. Sorry 'bout that. I completely missed it.

72 posted on 03/05/2008 1:09:35 PM PST by Bob
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To: steve86
? ~ I worked for America's most diverse and integrated organization ~ the United States Postal Service.

EVERYBODY works for the Post Office.

73 posted on 03/05/2008 1:36:48 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Phantom Patriot

I will indeed give him your thanks. As to the issue at hand, WE the PEOPLE should demand better than this from our representatives.


74 posted on 03/05/2008 2:38:22 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: SoldierDad

i am ok with that... there are laws against them owning them but if they need to protect themselves, ‘shall not be infringed’ means just that... if you think otherwise you are a gun grabber... just haggling on the price of freedom.

teeman8r


75 posted on 03/05/2008 2:39:20 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: XR7

Question: “Do we need guns at Paradise?”

Answer: Yes!


76 posted on 03/05/2008 2:39:27 PM PST by Poser (Willing to fight for oil)
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To: Bob

No problem. I’ve run into the same thing on occasion. It’s not always easy to tell when someone is being sarcastic, especially when there’s not a /sarc tag. I’ll try and remember to use that in the future.


77 posted on 03/05/2008 2:39:31 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: XR7

Here at Firebase Paradise firearms are manditory,
if you don’t have one we will issue you one.


78 posted on 03/05/2008 2:41:05 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: teeman8r

Even if I were somone with a felony conviction, if one of my family member’s life were in danger, and a firearm was available, I’d protect them (provided I’m not the reason why their life was being threatened). If that came with consequences, so be it.


79 posted on 03/05/2008 2:42:21 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a 2nd BCT 10th Mountain Soldier home after 15 months in the Triangle of death)
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To: XR7

Given all the people they allow in National Parks I wouldn’t go there without a gun. Especially since most people think everyone there is unarmed.


80 posted on 03/05/2008 10:35:35 PM PST by TigersEye (This is the age of the death of reason.)
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