Microsoft Foresaw Vista Problems

Wall Street Journal ^ | 02/28/08 | ROBERT A. GUTH

[militem]

ping

[kinoxi]

Ping swordmaker to rag on this. He’s good at it.

[KayEyeDoubleDee]

Huge thread about this at Slashdot today:

Microsoft Internal Emails Show Dismay With Vista
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/28/1746211

PDF file available from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/vistaone3046.pdf

From page 6 of the PDF:

From: Jim Allchin
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2006 8:15 AM

We really botched this. I was not involved in this decision and I will support it because I trust you thinking through the logic.

BUT, you guys have to do a better job with our customers that [sic] was shown here.

This was especially true because you put me out on limb [sic] making a commitment. This is not ok.

[AlexW]

I am buying a new laptop next week but confused over vista vs XP.. I am still on W98. I am considering a HP Pavilion with duo2core. Most people tell me that Vista is C_ _ _, but hard to find them without Vista.

I welcome any suggestions.

[the invisib1e hand]

getting anything done well at any organization is next to impossible these day. people don't communicate, don't work together, don't respect one another or authority; authority (or what passes for it) doesn't respect subordinates, it's all about "me," people are dysfunctionally thin skinned, afraid to speak up for fear of offending someone and who knows what kind of consequences for that, everyone's sure they're group is the next one to be axed...etcer-freaking-a.

To have as good a run as msft had for so long might just be miraculous.

[unspun]

They might admit that it just isn’t an efficient OS. (See UNIX and derivatives.)

[KayEyeDoubleDee]

I welcome any suggestions.

Vista is a good operating system if:

1) You have a good video card, and

2) You have lots of RAM.

You need to make sure that your laptop does NOT have an onboard Intel video chip.

You need the video chip to be from someone like ATi, or nVidia.

That was the whole point of the discussion in the Microsoft case - the Intel video chips which they put in the motherboards aren't capable of running Vista.

Only nVidia and ATi are capable of running Vista.

As for the RAM, I'd want at least 1 GB [preferably 2 GB].

And if you can't afford 1 GB, then I'd pass on Vista, on go with XP.

[webheart]

I welcome any suggestions.

I bought a refurbished HP Laptop from Costco, core duo and 2 gb ram, pretty nice, although cheap, and had windows xp mdia center ed. I'm very happy with it.

[Salamander]

I have ALL of the above and it still SUCKS.

When I have the time, I’m booting from a USB floppy to install the right SATA drivers necessary to install WinXP Pro on this miserable POS and, hopefully regain both my laptop’s functionality and my sanity.

[the invisib1e hand]

yeah. I mean, it's only on every freaking desktop in the world, whereas unix is about as ubiquitous as...Jensen Interceptors.

I guess that's another "market failure," hunh?

[CutePuppy]

The problems with Vista go so far beyond minimum technical / hardware requirements that this looks to be a lame “slipstream” excuse from Microsoft...

Even many highly technical people who run high end PCs with plenty of memory and fast multi-core CPUs that jumped on Vista bandwagon and tried to emphasize its advantages early on can’t any longer ignore the bugs, sluggish performance, installation problems etc. etc.

Many of the problems go to the decision by Microsoft to start ugly call-back / WGA copy protection with the introduction of XP, especially since the overwhelming majority of the revenue they get is not from retail sales of OS but from pre-installed copies on computers from manufacturers and from enterprise volume licensing.

They started to be worried more about losing a very small percentage of revenue to “pirates” (which happens anyway) than about quality of their software. That’s usually the beginning of the end...

[KayEyeDoubleDee]

I have ALL of the above and it still SUCKS.

What are your specs?

Especially: Do you know what kind of hard drive you have [ata100, ata133, satai, or sataii?], and how fast it spins [5400, 7200, or 10000 rpm?]

[gpapa]

You can buy an HP/Compaq Presario V6700TX series with Intel Dual Core with XP-PRO. The Pavilion series is only available with Vista.

Source: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/cto.do

As an alternate you can get an HP Compaq 6515b Notebook PC with an AMD Processor and XP-PRO.

Source: http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/321957-321957-64295-321838-89315-3368537.html

[Salamander]

Processor
Model : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T5450 @ 1.66GHz
Speed : 1.66GHz
Cores per Processor : 2 Unit(s)
Threads per Core : 1 Unit(s)
Type : Mobile, Dual-Core
Internal Data Cache : 2x 32kB, Synchronous, Write-Thru, 8-way, Inclusive, 64 byte line size
L2 On-board Cache : 2MB, ECC, Synchronous, ATC, 8-way, Inclusive, 64 byte line size, 2 threads sharing

System
System : Hewlett-Packard HP Pavilion dv9500 Notebook PC
Platform Compliance : Intel Centrino Duo Mobile Technology
Mainboard : Quanta 30CB
Bus(es) : ISA PCI PCIe IMB USB FireWire/1394 i2c/SMBus
Multi-Processor (MP) Support : 1 Processor(s)
Multi-Processor Advanced PIC (APIC) : Yes
System BIOS : Hewlett-Packard 255.255
Total Memory : 2.00GB DDR2

Chipset 1
Model : HP Mobile PM965/GM965/GL960 Express Processor to DRAM Controller
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 166MHz (664MHz)
Total Memory : 2GB DDR2
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 332MHz (664MHz)

Video System
Monitor/Panel : Generic PnP Monitor
Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GS
Imaging Device : HP Webcam

Physical Storage Devices
ST9120821AS 120GB (SATA150, 8MB Cache) : 111.79GB (C:) (E:)
ST98823AS 80GB (SATA150, 8MB Cache) : 74.53GB (D:)
Slimtype DVD A DS8A1H (ATAPI, 24x CD-R, 24x CD-W, 3x DVD-R, 3x DVD-W, 2MB Cache) : N/A (F:)

Logical Storage Devices
Hard Disk (C:) : 103.45GB (41.03GB, 40% Free Space) (NTFS) @ ST9120821AS 120GB (SATA150, 8MB Cache)
HP_RECOVERY (E:) : 8.33GB (1.80GB, 22% Free Space) (NTFS) @ ST9120821AS 120GB (SATA150, 8MB Cache)
DATA (D:) : 74.53GB (14.73GB, 20% Free Space) (NTFS) @ ST98823AS 80GB (SATA150, 8MB Cache)
CD-ROM/DVD (F:) : N/A @ Slimtype DVD A DS8A1H (ATAPI, 24x CD-R, 24x CD-W, 3x DVD-R, 3x DVD-W, 2MB Cache)

Peripherals
Serial/Parallel Port(s) : 1 COM / 0 LPT
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Universal PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Universal PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Universal PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Universal PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Universal PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Composite Device
USB Controller/Hub : USB Printing Support
USB Controller/Hub : USB Composite Device
USB Controller/Hub : Generic USB Hub
USB Controller/Hub : Generic USB Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Mass Storage Device
USB Controller/Hub : USB Mass Storage Device
USB Controller/Hub : USB Mass Storage Device
FireWire/1394 Controller/Hub : RICOH OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller
Keyboard : Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 Keyboard
Keyboard : HID Keyboard Device
Keyboard : HID Keyboard Device
Mouse : Synaptics PS/2 Port TouchPad
Mouse : Logitech HID-compliant G5 Laser Mouse
Mouse : Wacom Mouse
Human Interface : HP Quick Launch Buttons
Human Interface : HID-compliant device
Human Interface : HID-compliant device
Human Interface : HID-compliant device
Human Interface : Wacom HID Pen
Human Interface : Wacom HID Digitizer
Human Interface : HID-compliant device
Human Interface : Virtual Keyboard Interface
Human Interface : Virtual Media Keys
Human Interface : Wacom Virtual Hid Driver
Human Interface : Virtual Keyboard Driver
Human Interface : USB Human Interface Device
Human Interface : USB Human Interface Device

Communication Device(s)
Device : Motorola SM56 Data Fax Modem

Power Management
Mains (AC) Line Status : On-Line
Battery No 1 : 100%

Operating System(s)
Windows System : Microsoft Windows Vista Business Tablet PC Edition Media Center 6.00.6000
Platform Compliance : Win32 x86

Windows Experience Index
Current System : 1.0

Network Services
Adapter : Realtek RTL8168/8111 Family PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet NIC (NDIS 6.0)
Adapter : Intel(R) Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN

[MediaMole]

Consider a Macbook or Macbook pro. Either one can run Windows without a problem and you can also run OSX.

You aren’t going to pay a big premium over a Windows laptop with comparable quality.

If you are going to go with Vista, make sure you get a real Core 2 Duo, not one of the “Pentium dual core” chips. Also, make sure you get at least 2 gigs ram and a fast (7200rpm) hard drive.

Try to avoid any integrated graphics solution. Look for something like an nvidia 8600M graphics solution. If you do go with an Intel chipset, look for the X3100 graphics. If it says i915 or i950 graphics, you won’t have a good Vista experience.

[KayEyeDoubleDee]

So you're dual core, at 1.66GHz, with 2GB RAM, a GeForce 8600M, and a SATA150 drive?

1.66GHz does strike me as a little slow for Vista, and I would also wonder how quickly that hard drive responds. Also the FSB, at 664MHz, is just a tad slow.

But otherwise it seems like you should be good to go.

Did the laptop come with a bunch of Malware pre-installed on it?

[dayglored]

Okay, I’ll do it... ;-)

[Enchante]

I recently bought a Dell Vostro 1400 notebook with XP Professional. I love it!! Dell still offers XP as an option with quite a few PCs. From what I have heard about Vista I would not touch it with a 10ft pole until they get to Service Pack 2 (I think they are just getting ready to release SP1). I am no techie but I know some techies and all I hear about Vista is that it is bloated (10x as much as XP) and slow relative to any given set of hardware, with many bugs and glitches.....

[MikeHu]

I almost gave up on computers but decided to make one last desperate try on an Apple, and now think that would eliminate most people’s computing problems.

Apples are the only computers worth buying used because they are so well made — unlike the PCs which are designed for obsolescence.

PCs seem to degrade from the moment you get them and towards the end, it seems like all you’re doing is running housekeeping programs to keep the computer alive, while Apples seem to stay the same throughout its useful life.

If you just want reliability and hassle-free computing, Apple is the only way to go. I’m tired of messing with the computers; I just want to compute.