[The Citizen Soldier]

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

In a sentence - McCain is bad for the country. He has proven this over the past twenty years by his comments and by his actions.

As a Viet Nam veteran, I believe he betrayed the MIA/POW's in 1991 as a member of the Select Committee, in his anxiousness to renew relations with a communist Viet Nam.

As an American, I believe he has repeatedly betrayed the nation (and the party) with every bill that has his name on it. To wit:
- McCain-Feingold
- McCain-Kennedy
- McCain-Edwards
- McCain-Lieberman

In 2004 he seriously considered running as VP with John Kerry (another betrayer of Viet Nam veterans).

You seriously ask why we are visceral and nasty?

This picture pretty well sums it up.

[LibertarianInExile]

“As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H).”

If leftist policy is implemented by the left, that policy fails—as it always does—and the left gets the blame only indirectly.

If leftist policy is implemented by the GOP, that policy fails—as it always does—and the right gets the blame squarely. Not the GOP. Not the milquetoast that implemented the leftist policy. The right.

Conservatives do not want to see another 4 years of conservatism being blamed for the failures of leftism. They don’t want conservative fiscal or social policy—which has damn little to do with Bush’s policy, or his dad’s policy, mind you—blamed for the failures of leftism.

Even if he is elected, McCain will bring more leftism. And the results will be the inevitable result of expanded leftism in the GOP and the U.S. government—a fractured base, a fractured country, and a united left eager to implement radical leftism. Do we need a fractured base, unlikely to mobilize for even local candidates? No. Do we need a fractured country, in the middle of a war? No. Do we need a united left or their radical policies? Hell, no. Is that going to be the result of four years of McCain? Hell, yes.

So why would 4 years of McCain be worse than 4 years of Obama or Hillary? Because A) the left gets the blame for those 4 years, because leftism ALWAYS fails, B) the base is unified again and has a chance to realign in a way that allows a conservative nominee instead of a milquetoast C) the country has at least a chance to move back towards freedom again instead of staying in a democrat socialist mode.

Simply calling my statements ‘illogical’ doesn’t make them so. Simply calling my intolerance for McCain or any other faux conservative nominee ‘illogical’ won’t get my vote. Simply pretending that McCain is some sort of conservative or even a nominee conservatives can support on the basis of his lesser-of-two-evils status is not going to cut it.

So it’s about time you make a logical case yourself. And this time, convince conservatives that a dyed-in-the-wool moderate who’s sold them out time and time again will represent their interests best. Oh, and explain why we should expect that he would care about what we think after getting into the Oval Office, when the last 12 years of lesser-of-two-evil GOP nominees have resulted in conservatives repeatedly getting the shaft, and increased national government power and bureaucracy.

[MNJohnnie]

I see, we are suppose to just ignore the McCain record of the last 10 years and blindly believe, as you do, that the McCain of the late 1980s and early 1990s is going to magically reappear in place of the McCain of the last 10 years once he is safely in the White house.

Name for me 3 Presidents in the last 75 years that have moved to the Right once in office?

[VRWC For Truth]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
-Benjamin Franklin

McNitWit is the SOS. Name one success ever to eminate from the SENATE. History isn't on McShames side. He's a doddering old Senate blowhard fool.

[CyberAnt]

“... some dem propaganda plants on FR....”

THIS GETS MY VOTE!!

[exnavy]

In a word, amnesty.

That should be a good enough reason for anyone.

[WildcatClan]

Some of the comments on this thread are a lot of the reason, but McCain has made his bed and he better either re-make it or be willing to sleep in it. The logic put forth by Sage (sorry to single you out) is going to go a lot farther in getting McCain elected than some of the “you elected Obama” nonsense I have seen on this thread already. The main responsibility lies with McCain and if he can’t earn their votes, he doesn’t deserve them.

Sage, should be the example here, this is what we need more of, and it’s sound reasoning as well as rhetoric. You don’t try to guilt or twist arms into getting someone to vote for someone they are not yet comfortable voting for as a general rule. That will only cause a voter to dig in deeper and feel so alienated that they are ashamed to return after they cool off a bit. Many will cool off and vote for McCain, but as I said, McCain has much work to do to bring them to that point. It’s early yet and this race is McCain’s to lose. The opposition is so weak and pathetic it is hard to imagine losing against them. The primary turnouts mean very little in the larger scheme of things so I am not willing to concede to Alibama with a banjer on my knee just yet. His own supporters do not yet know what he has done so far, so he hasn’t won anything yet.

[exit82]

Bob, I’m squarely in the third camp, and I make no apologies.

I have voted for Republican Presidential candidates in every Presidential election since 1972.

I will not be voting for any of the top three presumptive candidates this year.

I am against McCain for his policies, his politics, and his disloyalty to Republican and conservative causes, all of which others earlier on this thread have so eloquently stated the specifics, so I will not repeat them. They are numerous.

I am also against McCain because he is the worst candidate we could put forth in such a serious election at this juncture in our nation’s history. He is an old, arrogant SOB that cares not a wit for all of the things most people on this board cares about. In his mind, he is still the irresponsible, irrepressible, not to be denied fighter pilot jock he was 40 years ago. Tigers don’t change their stripes. He does not have the temperament to be President, and the campaign will soon show that.And there is plenty more dirt that will be dropped on his head by his so-called buddies in the MSM. They will have a field day with him.

My disdain for McCain may be futile in the grand scheme of things, but I must be true to myself. His past activities, statements, and actions are the best indicator of his future actions, so I can not trust him to protect my country or its interests, nor can I trust him to further my conservative ideals.

I also disdain McCain in the fervent hope that the GOP will see their mistake in allowing this clown to become the candidate. If Hillary is the worst threat to the Republic since the Civil War, and Obama right behind her, the GOP puts up McCain? How serious do you think the powerbrokers on the GOP are in protecting America like you think America needs protecting?

There are still 6 months to the convention. If we don’t try now to influence the candidate and/or the VP candidate, we can just shut up and forever hold our peace. We are already being told to sit down and shut up—yeah, that’s a great way to win friends and influence people.

McCain will be a disaster come November. He won’t fight against Hillary, and he will appear to be a dinosaur against Obama.

The truth is, there isn’t a dime’s worth of policy difference between the three of them, only a matter of how fast their liberal vision gets enacted.

You want to commit political suicide, be my guest. I won’t vote for a liberal, regardless of the letter after their name. As for the future, you can read my tagline.

[mdefranc]

What would be a President Hilbama achieve? Answer: immediate Republican unification in total opposition to crackpot leftist legislative bills and nominees, GOP congressional control beginning in 2010, and a conservative presidential victory in 2012.

What would a President McCain achieve? Answer: With the help of the Democrat congress and media, every single crackpot leftist idiocy that McCain has embraced over the years, with the consequences permanently discrediting and destroying the GOP.

Either way, 2009-2010 will be appalling. The question is do things get worse or better thereafter.

[TNdandelion]

It has less to do with McCain than it does the Republican Party of late. McCain was simply the last straw. If you will, the "WTF??" moment.

I don't care if people declare their loyalty to McCain and the RINO party, but please allow me to laugh with incredulity at the notion that we are just miserable. In fact, I would even dare suggest that the reluctant McCain supporters are far more miserable and simply resent having it pointed out to them.

[sitetest]

“As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H).”

False premise.

It’s an open question who would do more long-term harm - Mr. McCain, or Mr. Obama/Mrs. Clinton.

With either Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton, the assault is open, direct and frontal. As with Mr. Clinton, it’s very possible that a moderately conservative Republican congressional majority may arise to thwart much of the leftist agenda. Think: 1993 and HillaryCare and the rise of the Republican congressional majority in 1994. Think: the mitigation of Mr. Clinton’s original proposed tax increases to what was eventually passed.

With the election of Mr. McCain, many believe that we’ll see much of the same agenda passed as Mr. McCain tries to be all things to all people, tries to show himself as a non-partisan type of hands-across-the-aisle leader.

And in that case, it’s quite likely that the Republicans in Congress, as they did under Mr. Bush, will roll over and accept all the liberal policies offered up by a Republican presidency.

And just as we see the long-term damage that’s done to the party, just as we see that the Republican Party has been largely gutted of its conservativism, we believe that another moderate or liberal Republican presidency may magnify the damage done to by the Bush presidency to the cause of conservatism.

I have little doubt that Mr. McCain would betray us on:

- Supreme Court nominees;
- taxes;
- health care;
- federal education policy;
- further campaign finance reform and further restriction of the First Amendment.

I’m not altogether sure that he’d stay with the program on the war.

At best, he might be modestly better than either of the two Dems. In the short-term. In the long-term, conservatism would be utterly defeated as there would no longer be a major party that would give its platform to conservatism. We’d essentially have two liberal parties.

Is this an accurate assessment of the situation? I’m not sure. But it’s certainly a reasonable and logical one.

[John D]

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H).

I disagree. Besides his unstable temper which is very dangerous, McCain would do to the Republican Party what Jimmy Carter did to the democrats. We can survive 4 years, but we can not survive the 12 years or more that McCain would put us back.

[ex-snook]

No McCain, no way. Stop the bleeding. Make the RINO extinct before it appears in every election.

[ElectricStrawberry]

Why does the 3rd group have to “viscerally dislike” McCain?

Can we not leave the feeeeeeeeelings at the door and have a feeling-free logical reason? I have not one single feeeeeeeling towards McCain.

How about those that will not ever vote for McCain because, being the sponsor of McCain-Feingold that foisted upon the people free speech blackout periods designed to protect incombents, McCain violated his oath of office and the United States Constitution?

....and I will never vote for him to take yet another oath to protect the same Constitution he already overtly violated.

How about that I too took an oath to protect the Constitution and if I give my vote to a known infringer, I will be in violation of my own oath?

Nawwww.....gotta be some sort of feeeeeeeelings in there somewhere to blame.

[papasmurf]

You forgot the 4th group, of which I am a member.

I don't hate McCain. In fact, I don't even dislike him.

What I do hate, is the direction our Country has gone, and the position we now find ourselves in.

Let me explain. I believe we have wound up, basically, a two party system because the majority of our Country is comfortable in the middle. It's not a scary place to be.

Neither the left, nor the right feels overly threatened in the middle. So we wind up with a tug o' war contest. The libs pull us to the left, and the Cons pull us to the right. Hopefully, we wind up in that comfort zone called the middle. Otherwise, we have F.U.D. Which, BTW, is where we are now, and have been since around 1989 or 90. And it continues to grow with each passing day.

We have been out pulled by the libs, no doubt. In fact, our own side has helped them. And they continue to help them. John McCain is one that helps them. I see him as a good man, an honest man, and a true patriot. But, he is in fact, a RINO. And, right now we don't need, can't afford, to be taken not even one more millimeter to the left.

I really don't have a major problem with RINOS, they do have their place in the grand scheme of things. I don't think of them as evil, or anti Conservatism. I just diasagree with them in some ways. Even RR recognized and accepted the "big tent" theory. With caveats. He was referring to Conservative democrats, not republicans.

I submit this as evidence to that...

“A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency or simply to swell its numbers.” ~ Ronald Reagan, 1975

"I don't know about you, but I'm impatient with those Republicans who, after the last election, rushed into print saying we must broaden the base of our party, when what they meant was to fuzz up and blur even more the differences between ourselves and our opponents." Ronald Reagan, 1975

"Don't give up your ideals, don't compromise, don't turn to expediency – and don't, for heaven's sake, having seen the inner workings of the watch – don't get cynical." Ronald Reagan, 1976

Ronald Reagan, a former Democrat, pulled hard right for Conservativism. He brought us back to the center. We were, nearly, in perfect balance with ourselves, once again.

Now, after having had not one, but two RINOS, and only one lib as POTUS, we are firmly back in liberal terrority. As we can see, electing another RINO does NOTHING for our beliefs, or our Country.

If we must sink further into the abyss of liberalism, let it be a liberal who takes us there, not a so called Conservative. Let not the fundamental beliefs of Conservatism be further sullied by one of our own.

Please, do not give in the to the F.U.D. the left and the media has inundated us with over the years. Do not allow the middle to be re-defined as half way between the center and the left.

I honestly believe that a mass non POTUS vote from the "R" ballots will send a loud, resounding, powerful message to the GOP. (and the DNC, as well) A message that says..."You can take this job your selectee and shove it!"

If you are worried about SCOTUS appointees, the way to stop libs there, is through the Senate. Sending the GOP a message now, will have a frightening effect on our Senators, so work hard to get real Conservatives elected, and keeping the good we already have.

We pushed them back on the shAmnesty bill, we can shove them back on POTUS confirmations, too.

You've got to know, and believe, that a dem administration is doomed to failure, at this point, and that will only help our cause. Support from the Conservative dem Senators, the dissaffected citizens, some of the media, and even outright defections will occur.

Please, stay true to our common Conservative beliefs, don't give in to the fear, and remain steadfast for our future.

[bray]

If it wasn’t for hatred of GW/Rudy/Huck/InSain these FReepers would have nothing to offer.

Pray for W and Our Troops

[paltz]

Issue at large is this :

Should conservatives stand by their principles and make it known that McCain is not a conservative?...stay home?...vote 3rd party? and regroup 4 years from now when the party can, perhaps offer a better candidate?..the huge drawback is an obama or hillary presidency during that time, and 4 yrs of presidency can do a lot of damage ala Carter. The GOP should focus on the House and Senate races during the midterms.

or

Do conservatives support McCain and watch the party further fall to shambles giving Democrats like Obama and Hillary free reign over the country for the next decade or so? With McCain, at the helm, the party will move towards a "democrat lite" platform. Given the people he is already hiring for his youth campaign, it is obvious he is remaining in rino mode on social issues, and is not budging. That being said, there will be no gop to come in and clean up the crap that the democrats free reign on the country for 20 years or will do damage over.

[Gator113]

Marked for later response. Going out to buy a new TV. ;>)

[oldbrowser]

What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

I am in the group that will vote for McCain because I believe that a Dem president along with a Dem house and senate could cause huge damage to the WOT and the supreme court.

I believe that there are many trolls on this website that emanate from DU and similar websites. I believe they were successful in getting many conservatives to not vote in 2006 in the false belief that they were "sending a message" to the GOP.

They were very successful in using a conservative website to discourage conservatives and it is now part of their play book and will continue.

[mountainfolk]

I am a huge McCain detractor. Which does not mean that I will not vote straight Republican in Nov. I try to refrain from listing the reasons the man disgusts me because I do not like to give aid and comfort to the RATS. There is much validity to the anti McCain posts and about the only thing going for him is that he is at least on the Republican side on the WOT. McCain has at least one chance to push many of the undecideds in his direction; the choice of Vice President. However, given that the choice Republicans were given for a candidate undoubtedly originated with the power brokers withing the party, we can surmise that they have likely already decided who will be declared VP and all of our suggestions for an acceptable Republican will go nowhere. The main reason for voting straight Republican is that it is possible that if the Republican party runs good, strong candidates for the rest of the ticket, we can elect enough members in the senate and house to do major damage control, whichever of the three candidates makes it to the White House.