Posted on 02/22/2008 5:48:40 AM PST by Kaslin
That's a strawman argument. I've said before that I see nothing wrong at all with voting for McCain on Tuesday and demanding he change policies that we disagree with on Wednesday. There are many places to demand more of candidates outside the voting booth: Lobbying them directly, getting our views out to the media; taking over party offices, like RNC positions; In the primaries, by picking the right candidates. I've done all of the above. An effective organization you can join to move the GOP to its core principles is the Republican Assembly. Join them.
Those of us who prefer McCain over the left-liberal obama know that there are hundreds of other races that are just as important in defining the future GOP, and we are fighting to get conservatives to win in those. We also know that there are many iportant conservative vs liberal races coming up - like the Colorado US Senate race. Who will stand up an support conservative Bob Schaffer over another Liberal Udall???
It wont be obama supporters that is for sure!
My point has been to get people to stop confusing what happens in a primary - which is about where the party goes, and what happens in a general election, which is about where the *country* goes. Letting America go to the left under Obama is not good for the country. Letting America go to the left under Obama will do nothing to help move the GOP to the right. Letting America go to the left under Obama will do nothing to help the conservative cause, instead it will smother it, as Obama moves forward with his ideas on the Fairness Doctrine, etc.
Again, if you have genuine concern for moving the GOP back on track, there is one constructive conservative thing you can do: Join or create a local Republican Assembly group, and take back your local party for the conservatives.
Si se peude! :-)
“The GOP is on the wrong track and I won’t be a part of it, just that simple.”
that’s a way over-generalization. All that happened here is the conservative wing didnt have a good unifying candidate and we lost the primary to a RINO, a RINO who happened to be the runner up in 2000. but we’ve seen conservatives win primaries this year, bigtime. Did you know that the same GOP primary voters that voted McCain in Maryland booted the liberal GOP congressman Wayne Gilcrest and replaced him with a conservative?
In my neck of the woods, Cornyn is on the ballot - a good conservative Senator who has done the right thing on judges, the right thing on taxes and spending, and the right thing on immigration, putting up the amendment that would at least exclude criminal aliens from the Z amnesty (of course obama voted against it).
I could point to many many more like that. Colorado US Senate race - Bob Shaffer.
“Don’t accuse me of being a cut and run Republican cuz I really am a RINO and don’t pretend otherwise.”
Okay, so you’re a RINO. so is McCain. why are you worried when we nominate one then? :-)
“The GOP is going left, left, left and I won’t go with it.”
I dispute that. We screwed up in the Presidential primary, granted, and if you are in california, yeah, that state’s going to the dogs. But the party leaders and rank and file are no less conservative than when GWB ran in 2000 or GHWB ran in 1988.
“McCain is a poor choice as a candidate and if the best you have is that he isn’t Hillary or Obama, then you are backing the wrong man.”
You are re-arguing the primary selection. I agree, its far from perfect... but you are still left with the question:
Who is best choice to lead this country, McCain or Obama?
there is a huge difference between a guy who is wrong on a few things (McCain) and a guy who is wrong on everything (Obama). I’m hearing “McCain’s not good enough for me” but I’m not hearing much in the way of constructive solutions to that dilemma. ... and it sure aint “let’s let Obama win and hope the country can survive that.”
That’s like set fire to your house because you dont like how the living room furniture are arranged.
“There are no more than 10 Republicans ... BUT THERE ARE 50 DEMOCRATS WHO ARE MORE LIBERAL.”
“ ... Either way, McCain is DEEP in RINO country. “
I’ve never disputed that point.
My point is that a moderate RINO vs left-liberal Democrat is still a big choice election, especially for president.
“Socialists of Reagan’s day would be considered center, or even moderate right today.”
Socialists in Reagan’s day were folks like Ted Kennedy and Walter Mondale and the “san fran” Democrats. They are the same today as they were then. Ted Kennedy is still around and now Obama is a Kennedy-type left-liberal; Pelosi is the same ‘san fran’ type like they had in the 1980s, etc. If you are saying that Obama is the most far-left major-party candidate for President that we’ve ever had, you’d be right, though.
“But wrt Obama/Clinton, I have no control of the enemy outside the gate.”
That’s why letting them win would be a disaster for conservatives. We lose control of the federal govt, the agenda, the future of this country, and have zero influence.
A victory lets them in the gates to run the town and to rape and pillage the town. It doesnt matter who you trust or mistrust on ‘our side’, their side is a known bad quantity.
There are lot of constructive things we can and should do to get the GOP back on track and/or get conservative agenda to move forward. I could come up with 100 items on a ‘to do’ list. but “elect Barack Obama” would not be on that list. Ever.
So do I. GOP, take a hike and see me after November 2008 when you're wondering what went wrong.
Great column.
Since we are now stuck with McCain, is there any way that we can tell HIM to get with the program? Do conservatives have any power here? Is there a way to get him to consider conservative policies to be the only mandate he must follow once he gets in there? Is there ANYTHING we can do?
Because Obama (or Clinton) is not an option.
“Reagan himself supported Republican candidates who were not allies on all issues. He supported pro-choice candidates.”
“I understand that. Many of our libertarian FRiends are pro-choice to this very day. But they retain a respect toward the pro-lifers that is entirely different from the disdain shown by the moderate/liberal pro-choice movement. “
I am not talking about libertarians, I am talking about Reagan’s support for moderate pro-choice Republicans, like New Jersey’s Milicent Fenwick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millicent_Fenwick
Reagan supported her, and she was more squishy than McCain by far. Think of another Olmypia Snowe type.
See post# 365
I am a conservative, I will vote for McCain in the general election.
Absolutely nonsense. The strawman argument is the supposition that the Conservatives will have any influence at all in a McCain administration, that any leverage could be applied to a one term president, after the fact.
In the first place, one does not reward a traitorous bastard. Secondly, his many betrayals prove him to be a man of low character, and lacking honor. One does not put such a man in a position of power for any reason. He cannot be trusted at_all.
Third, and nearly as important, he is the heir apparent of the Bush administration, and of the Baker "big tent". Where GHWB and GWB left off, he will continue, and with abandon, as he will not be held to account- He is stubborn, conceited, ignoble, and will not care to behave in hopes of a second term. If the removal of rights and sovereignty bother you wrt the Bush admin., know that McCain would be in a position to do much more.
I will go NO_FURTHER down the road to globalism- It is but Socialism in a business suit.
Those of us who prefer McCain over the left-liberal obama know that there are hundreds of other races that are just as important in defining the future GOP, and we are fighting to get conservatives to win in those.
Then you are barking up the wrong tree. McCain as nominee will lose big and will cause loss across the board. You would stand a better chance backing a 3rd party Conservative, as that would have the promise of coattails to some degree.
An effective organization you can join to move the GOP to its core principles is the Republican Assembly. Join them.
No. I, like many others, have retired my membership in the Republican party when once again, no Conservative was lifted up. I have no interest in supporting the Republicans in any way until a conservative equilibrium has been restored. No more treasure, no more time, no more blood, and no more faith. "Put up or shut up" time has arrived.
Senator McCain has always been considered the least likable of all the G.O.P. candidates and the one with the heaviest baggage of political negatives. I’m beginning to believe the GOP has wanted either Hillary/Obama to win all along. There is no other reason they all are behind a clown like McCain.
It’s all about the Shamnesty.
I see no difference. The lesser evil is still evil, after all.
Socialists in Reagan’s day were folks like Ted Kennedy and Walter Mondale and the “san fran” Democrats.
Sorry, my bad. What was in my head is not what I posted!?! Let me try anew: I was attempting to describe Democrats when Reagan was a Democrat as being "center or center right". At the time, they too were a party of principle. The socialists gutted the Democrat party in the same way that they are attempting to gut the Republicans.
Republicans cut away from the anchor of Conservatism will drift ever leftward, and the anchor chain is being cut through even as we speak... Not at the waterline, mind you, but from upon the deck, and by order of the captain.
That’s why letting them win would be a disaster for conservatives. We lose control of the federal govt, the agenda, the future of this country, and have zero influence.
Is it your suggestion that Conservatives have some grasp on the levers of power now? If so, how so?
A victory lets them in the gates to run the town and to rape and pillage the town. It doesnt matter who you trust or mistrust on ‘our side’, their side is a known bad quantity.
LOL! So our bastards are better than their bastards because they are our bastards? Baker moderates have attempted, done, or refused to repair more to our rights and sovereignty that ANY. They must go.
There are lot of constructive things we can and should do to get the GOP back on track and/or get conservative agenda to move forward.
Nah~. It has already been tried. to be constructive now, we must be destructive. The Republicans will crater this fall, power will be ceded, and then perhaps we will talk of rebuilding. But then again, perhaps not.
“elect Barack Obama” would not be on that list. Ever.
I am not "electing Obama". I am just *not* electing the "Republican", a vote of no confidence, and for just cause.
[x] None of the Above
Sorry, I see what you are driving at. It makes little difference though, as Reagan Conservatism was still coalescing. I doubt very much that he would step on the pro-lifers now.
When the Republican establishment is confronted with the cold fact that if the party nominates McCain, all efforts to win the presidency will be in vain. It will be forced to "broker" the leftist McCain into oblivion where he rightfully belongs. Senator McCain has always been considered the least likable of all the G.O.P. candidates and the one with the heaviest baggage of political negatives.
In priniciple, I agree with your wishes about whether there is anything that can be done to make him stay on a conservative track once in (if, he gets in). However, from what I saw about his stubborness on the immigration issue, convinces me that when presented with such a situation, he will use every relativistic trick and twist of purpose to do what he wanted to do in the first place. So, from that standpoint, he’s not worth the trouble. A lot of arm twisting -— in the end, he’ll revert, and the Republican ‘brand’ will get the blame for it.
“I am not talking about libertarians, I am talking about Reagan’s support for moderate pro-choice Republicans, like New Jersey’s Milicent Fenwick”
“Sorry, I see what you are driving at. It makes little difference though, as Reagan Conservatism was still coalescing. I doubt very much that he would step on the pro-lifers now.”
Not really different. If Reagan was president today, and was asked to back pro-choice candidates like Snowe or ArnoldS., he would. That’s who he was as an “11th commandment” Republican who simply supported the Republican candidate.
And Nancy Reagan and Ron would both be big McCain supporters right about now. Why? They are Republicans.
The battle between moderates and conservatives in the party goes back over a century - Roosevelt v Taft in 1912, Coolidge v LaFollette in 1920s, Taft v Dewey 1948, Goldwater v Rockefeller 1964, Reagan v Ford 1976 ... and in 2008, since we had no heavyweight conservative, the moderate wing got one of their guys - McCain. Yet he is *still* - prolife, good on spending, strong on national defense. No matter what happens, so wings of the GOP will be around and will continue.
The difference is that when one side or another wins the nomination, the other faction didnt pretend like it was the end of the world. Let’s get real, life goes on, we conservatives are still here, and we are not going away.
The choice for each faction is to get behind the ticket or not. So the question is, do we unify and win with our candidates, both conservative and moderate, or do we bicker and back-bite to the point of losing to the liberal Democrats. Back then, we cut our leaders some slack for doing the pragmatic thing and unifying to win. Now we dont. GW Bush has a more consistent pro-life record than Ronald Reagan, but is not given credit for it. When he supports moderate incumbents, we whine.
It’s fascinating that we are willing to give Reagan slack for things but not give current slack for doing the exact same thing. Its like the BDS-syndrome media has spiked the punch bowl and we’ve absorbed BDS.
“Since we are now stuck with McCain, is there any way that we can tell HIM to get with the program? Do conservatives have any power here? Is there a way to get him to consider conservative policies to be the only mandate he must follow once he gets in there? Is there ANYTHING we can do?”
Contact the campaign.
Tell them that you will help the campaign under certain conditions and lay them out.
Here’s my condition for helping his campaign:
- Come out for enforcement first (not just the border fence, but also getting law enforcement and employer verification set up and working) before you do anything about the illegal aliens
- make clear that immigration bills will require majority Republican support to be supported by him
“That’s why letting them win would be a disaster for conservatives. We lose control of the federal govt, the agenda, the future of this country, and have zero influence.
Is it your suggestion that Conservatives have some grasp on the levers of power now? If so, how so? “
With Bush and Cheney, of course we do, and it is churlish and false to say otherwise. Conservatives are the majority of the Republicans in Congress - the non-conservatives are the RINOs, the minority.
In the White House, we got 2 solid Supreme Court picks. We got good folks like John Bolton at the UN, we are fighting the GWOT. pro-nuclear energy policies. tax cuts. pro-life legislation. stood up against kyoto and ICC. We stopped the Democrats’ attempt to cut-n-run from Iraq and Democrat bill to triple govt spending on Schip program.
Now McCain says no new taxes, no new entitlement spending, an end to earmarks, cut the corporate tax rate and end the AMT. That’s conservative. There’s a lot more there but you get the picture.
“Republicans cut away from the anchor of Conservatism will drift ever leftward, and the anchor chain is being cut through even as we speak..” -— its not an absolute black-or-white situation. More Republicans adhere to most conservative views. Some defect on some issues... Obama is against us on all of the issues.
we get 65% of the loaf or none at all.
My point, this whole thread is:
1. Separate the issue of the future of the party from the general election. They are 2 different things.
2. McCain is much more conservative and qualified for president than Obama. For the sake of the country, we should support McCain.
It is time for the Baker wing's "big tent" to be burned to the ground. No amount of "bickering" is going to change that. Perhaps it is fitting that the catalyst that finally brings them down will be McCain.
Back then, we cut our leaders some slack for doing the pragmatic thing and unifying to win. Now we dont. GW Bush has a more consistent pro-life record than Ronald Reagan, but is not given credit for it. When he supports moderate incumbents, we whine.
The Conservatives have been long suffering, with very little to show for it. Patience was thin in 04, gone in 06, and now there is nothing left but to crater the party and start over.
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