Posted on 01/22/2008 12:50:17 PM PST by BGHater
Strategist says move would show U.S. is committed to Latin America
MIAMI — The Navy is considering restoring the 4th Fleet in the Atlantic Ocean, a bureaucratic change that would raise the prominence of Pentagon maritime activities in Latin America and the Caribbean.
Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, made the disclosure during a visit to the Southern Command last week — calling it "a great idea" that "as far as I know is moving forward."
The move would bring no new vessels to the region but would put Southcom on par administratively with other Pentagon outposts that have large budgets and bigger muscle. For example, the Central Command operates the Fifth Fleet in the Middle East.
It would also restore an institution that sent U.S. Navy ships into southern waters in search of Nazi U-boats. The Navy created the 4th Fleet in 1943 to hunt submarines in the South Atlantic during World War II.
It was disbanded seven years later with naval operations in the region run from Norfolk, Va.
Still in planning stage At the Pentagon, Navy Cmdr. Jeff Davis said no final decision has been made. Mullen said if such an institution were created, it would be worked out between the Navy's top officer, Adm. Gary Roughead, and Adm. James Stavridis, the Southcom commander, who runs the region's U.S. military operations out of South Florida.
In theory, the 4th Fleet would operate out of Mayport, Fla., now a smaller headquarters for Navy South, which coordinates Navy activities in Latin America and the Caribbean for Southcom. It is run by a one-star officer, Rear Adm. James Stevenson. A 4th Fleet would be run by a two- or three-star admiral, and may need congressional approval.
Davis emphasized that no new vessels — and no additional budget — would come with the creation of a 4th Fleet.
Instead, warships from various bases would be assigned to sail in the fleet — in waters stretching from the Caribbean through Central and South America.
'A bigger profile' Military analysts said the establishment of a 4th Fleet admiral could elevate Southcom's prominence in discussions on where ships are deployed — and would surely send a signal to southern neighbors.
"It gives the Navy a bigger profile in the region," said Frank Mora, professor of national security strategy at the National War College in Washington, D.C. "It sends a message to the region that you are important at a time when there is a sense that we don't care."
Moreover, it may also reflect the Navy's increasing commitment to Latin America and the Caribbean at a time when the Pentagon is preoccupied — and when ground forces are focused on Middle East operations.
In recent years, the Southern Command has increasingly relied on the Navy for humanitarian operations.
"Symbolism is something that has some currency," Mora said. "It's a way of compensating for limited resources and funds, perhaps lack of focus in Washington or other things."
Mullen, the top U.S. military officer since October, was at Southcom as part of a five-day trip to the region that includes Colombia and El Salvador.
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
New Chinese subs add to threat
Conventional, nuclear models will challenge U.S. Navy
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46848
U .S. cruiser spots 2 Iranian subs in Gulf
http://groups.google.com/group/noticiarionaval/browse_thread/thread/6df23c5f709dffcc
All interesting times, the last article is of course in the ME. But keeping in mind that Hugo and Imanutjob are buddies there might be something floating around ou there. Add onto that Russia has been outfitting both China and Iran subs for years... this is a very smart move by our government.
We only deployed in the region for short periods like a trip to RIO or Liberty in St Thomas etc. But work ups there for all east coast carriers was routine. That means they are there a good portion of the time anyway. We could do our work ups about anywhere. Mostly Flight Opps, Engineering Evals, and readiness drills etc. GITMO meant very little sleep. The work ups done there by a carrier did not need a firing range especially for the Fighters as they used a buoy towed by the ship itself.
How long ago? In the 70's Charelston wasn't a carrier port but Mayport FLA is and at one time I think Brooklyn, NY was a homeport maybe up till the 1960's. I know Brooklyn once had a carrier building yard there. Charleston IIRC was too shallow for a deep draft CV. A Forestall nor KITTY HAWK would have fit in there. Possibly Lexington might have or an LPH.
That second shot of three carriers are as follows:
CVN-65 - USS Enterprise
CVN-71 - USS Theodore Roosevelt
CVN-75 - USS Harry S Truman
The numbers are painted on the bow deck. Zoom down, you’ll see ‘em!
KENNEDY did but rather than use Newport News Shipbuilding Dry Dock they sent her to Philly about the same time the old yard closed down. It was a rush and botched job as a result. Only two east coast yards do good carrier work and both are in the Tidewater area NNSBDD and Norfolk Naval Shipyards right up the river from NNSBDD.
AMERICA was the one who missed getting the SLEP overhaul and as a result it had a major explosion upon return from a third six month deployment in three years time in March 1994. Poppy/Cheney did it to her twice and Slick Willie/Aspin did the third and next to the last one. She was deliberately ruined there was no excuse for it. It was band-aid repaired after a Cold Iron {Dead in the Water} tow up to Norfolk Yards then sent on a last cruised and decommed in 1996.
There's a lot of rumors floating around about the AMERICA and JFK that weren't true. One of them included the rumor that they were to be CVN's and McNamara changed the plans. Simply not so. Ike ordered AMERICA and her keel was laid before JFK took office. At that point such a change is impossible to do.
Another was a rumor of a thin or weak hull due to steel shortage. In the early 1960 the USA had lots of steel to spare.
It is possible Kennedy may have been intended to be CVN as Kennedy is another class carrier in itself and McNamara would have had more say in it. AMERICA was the last of the Kitty Hawks and always intended to be a KH class. I think the AMERICA nixed being a nuke rumor started because there was a set of blue prints I remember seeing myself on the ship that had a Typo on them. It had CVN with a line through it and CVA-66. They were in Engineering Central Control.
At one time we had Newport News {the only one left} , Brookyln, Bremerton, and I think Long Beach as all being carrier production capable. I know Brookyln or NYC built at least one I think it was the Kitty Hawk itself. We went from four {two on each coast to one} Norfolk yard in a pinch possibly might be able to do it I'm not sure but it would take some major tooling up even for them and they do almost all east coast carrier overhauls except refueling nukes.
Rosie Roads had a Naval Air Station as well as a base. If I understand right the N.A.S. was closed as well. That part we could still use.
The ship in the movie was filmed in was the USS Whitehurst, which was stationed in Hawaii at the time.
My Dad was ship’s company at the time.
Many crewmembers got bit parts in the film. He’s got great stories of the shoot.
Mid-nineties. During the big fleet drawdown.
In the 70's Charelston wasn't a carrier port but Mayport FLA is and at one time I think Brooklyn, NY was a homeport maybe up till the 1960's.
Mayport was home to the Kennedy until they decommissioned her. It wouldn't surprise me if the next east coast carrier that goes into Newport News for major overhaul is homeported in Mayport once the work is done.
As for Brooklyn I don't know of any carriers being stationed there, maybe back in the 1950's. They used to homeport a couple of the CVS's in Newport, Rhode Island back in the 1960's. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
I have two pictures I found online for Norfolk but no way to post them. One is four carriers at the Norfolk piers in numerical order the other is 5 carriers berthed at once there. In the mid 1980’s a carrier pier was built between Pier 12 and Pier 7. Pier 12 was closest to the Hampton tunnel on the end and could berth two. Pier 7 was up toward the D&S piers {north} and due to depth and turning radius issues could hold only one. Pier 10 as the new one I think is called was a mistake as it leaves the cariers exposed to the wind and that area is well known for some bad straight line winds across the river. I saw almost every ship in port sent {broke loose from the piers} into the channel in about 1978 from such a storm. We were berthed at 12 on the sheltered side but lost our brow from it.
She never got the comprehensive SLEP overhaul like the Kitty Hawk did. She wasn't scheduled for anything at all except that the Pennsylvania delegation inserted the money into the budget to keep Philadelphia open a few more years like you said. That's probably why she was in such poor shape at the end.
How much you want to bet the Democrats force through half a billion or so to turn her into a museum ship? No money to keep her steaming but plenty to maintain the JFK memory.
When I got out in 1980 we had offically recieved orders that we were changing homeports to Mayport. A swap with JFK I think. But I think Reagan and Cap rescinded that order. JFK remained in Mayport and AMERICA stayed in NORVA. As for carrier homeports? I know what's got me thinking about Brookyln is the shipyard there. KITTY HAWK was build there and NYC was a liberty port.
Charelston the way I remember hearing was just about big enough for a few cans and was a base for subs mostly. They need to put two carriers homeported in Mayport and stop using Norfolk so heavy. It's just common sense.
I think that is a sure thing and John Warner likely cut that deal with the naming of the FORD. The Sec of the Navy ignored a lot of letters by vets when he did that. There was a sizable campaign to have the next carrier named AMERICA {as it was sank to gather the data for it} and Warner went behind our backs on the matter.
I don't know about World War II, but every carrier since the Forrestal has been built at one of three yards: New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn, Newport News Shipbuilding in Virginia, and New York Shipbuilding in Camden. Now we're down to Newport News.
Bremerton used to do overhauls and some construction, but nothing as large as a carrier.
Norfolk yard in a pinch possibly might be able to do it I'm not sure but it would take some major tooling up even for them and they do almost all east coast carrier overhauls except refueling nukes.
I've been at Portsmouth for an overhaul and it isn't a very plesant place. And I doubt that they have the workforce available anymore for major construction.
Charleston was escorts, subs, and minesweepers. And an absolutely miserable place to conn a ship in and out of. The Cooper is a tidal river; winding channel, shifting sand banks, frequent fog, fast current when the tide was going out. You'd age 10 years in the time it took from leaving the pier till you cleared the harbor mouth.
Me and a Deck Ape buddy had an apartment in Oceanview during overhaul. {Another place that is no more at least as most of us remember it being}. So we faired pretty good my last year in. I went on one three day shakedown about a week before I got out. I was taken off the watch list and was pretty much a trainer at that point. We only had one guy left in my shop that was there prior to overhaul that knew the equipment.
What do we need a 4th Fleet for now except to provide another Vice-Admiral’s billet?
Many thanks to you both for a very interesting discussion, and your insights on both the past and current status of the naval force.
Cheers!
Good Eye !
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