BA pilot feared the worst as he struggled to land plane

Times (UK) ^ | 1/19/07 | Steven Swinford and Richard Woods

[GovernmentShrinker]

THE pilot of the British Airways aircraft that crash-landed at Heathrow said he feared the flight would end in “catastrophe” as he struggled to cope with a double engine failure just two miles from touchdown. First Officer John Coward, 41, said both engines lost power simultaneously, leaving him with just seconds to bring the aircraft down.

-- snip --

Investigators examining the wreckage of flight BA038 are now focusing on the theory that the crash was caused by a failure in the avionics and electronics systems that control the plane’s engines. . . . A senior industry source said: “. . . The AAIB has identified that the problem seems to be connected with the avionics and and electrics which link the flight deck to the engines.

-- snip --

A former 777 pilot said that it was extremely unlikely that both engines would have suffered failure at the same time. “For two engines to fail at that stage of the flight - it’s not lack of fuel or contamination,” he said. “It’s got to have been commanded \[by the automatic control systems\]. We are all aghast.”

[jwparkerjr]

My son is instrument rated and flies helicopters. I glanced through some of his books, etc. and I know for a fact I will never again be able to answer affirmative to the ATC’s question if I can accept an instrument clearance. Truth is, if you’re having to be asked that question by the controller you’re already in over your head!

The other thing you NEVER want to hear a controller say is “Declare your intentions”! That can only mean that you’ve not communicated with him or her in a manner they can understand and they take that very poorly!

The happiest words to me are “You’re clear of my airspace, squawk 1200 and resume normal navigation”!

[Dan(9698)]

I have a private, single engine, Instrument.

My flying was about 15% night or instrument.

The controllers would put me in the stream with the airlines.

They fly 150 Knots indicated for approach. The controllers did not like it if you slowed to 1.3 stalling speed. It screwed up their spacing.

The runways airliners use are plenty long to allow 150 until on short final. Then exit on the high speed taxiway that was 45 degree turn.

[TalonDJ]

EMPs are a slim possibility.

EMPs are not possible at all. Aircraft systems are far more sheilded against that sort of thing than anything else in that area. If a weapons like that had gone off (assuming any exist in a workable state) it would have taken out enough other things in that area that there would be reports about it.

[TalonDJ]

Autothrottle malfunction ?

No, the autothrottle just moves the levers and then levers are connected to the throttle system. If the levers move then the autothrottle is working. They moved. Also the pilot applied even more power himself and the engines still did not respond.

[TalonDJ]

WTH do avionics have to do with the engines shutting down?

They don't. I don't know the 777's systems but I know a number of other state of the art avionics architectures and there is no way. The avionics system does not get direct access to commanding the engines. Only through the autothrottle and that is a mechanical link that is pilot over-rideable by just moving the handle. And the report seems to be that that system tried to do it's job correctly. No matter how much more complicated they make 'the plumbing' systems segregation and fault tolerance is still fundamental. So far this is just sounding more and more puzzling.

[TalonDJ]

jwparkerjr

And even without the GPS the FMS autotunes the VORs based on the flight plan you entered.

[TalonDJ]

Some have looked at the pictures of the damaged front engine blades and determined that the engines were running.

Actually the pictures I saw and teh comments from people indicated that the engines were not running.

[JenB]

The company I work for is trying to come up with a product that basically operates to DO178B standard (we’re not using that term but that’s what we’re aiming for. Trains, not planes, but same sort of needs) and we just finished an operating system survey. We’re too small to write our own and are going with LynxOS.

And no, we didn’t consider Windows. No way we’d get that past the FRA.

[TalonDJ]

It just seems like a very bad design decision up front to not have isolated the primary flight control system.

That quoted post does not give any real indication of the system architecture. It IS separate.

[TalonDJ]

A bunch of our stuff runs on LynxOS.

[TalonDJ]

Pictures show APU inlet door open. The APU is typically not started until taxi in.

Now that is interesting and indicates engine failure. The systems (or aircraft I am familiar with and very likey this one) will open that door automatically in the case of indications of power failures.

[TalonDJ]

‘shut down’ and ‘lost power’ are not completely the same thing. Although they are close (and sometimes are the same).

[thinking]

plus 45 minutes...

[GovernmentShrinker]

My understanding is that small, portable EMP weapons with very localized capability are certainly possible and may already exist. http://www.milnet.com/e-bomb.htm

I do think it’s unlikely in this case, as it would make much more sense from a terrorist’s point of view to do this on a take-off, when fuel tanks are relatively full, than on a landing where a spectacular fire with huge TV broadcast appeal is nearly guaranteed. I’m afraid it’s likely that this will be a problem in the fairly near future, even though I don’t think it accounts for this particular incident.

I don’t know how reliable this site is http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/sa/sa_oct00ghc01.html (it asked for a password, but after 2 tries worked without one) but it claims aircraft are vulnerable: “The aircraft on ground will also become easy targets because the modern generation aircraft rely heavily on electronic equipment. It would be impossible to safeguard them considering the immensity of the problems about their hardening. Conventional blast hardening will not be effective.”

[P-Marlowe]

It sounds to me like it just ran out of gas.

[CodeMasterPhilzar]

In a word, no. That’s a deal killer. I’m not usually one to vote on single issues, or make decisions on single issues... But that, yeah, I think that would keep me from buying a particular vehicle. There’s no car/truck/suv out there that I like so much “I just gotta have it.” So even if there was a vehicle I liked, if it had Sync, it is out of contention... And MS? Sorry, I’ve been dealing with their stuff since DOS 1.25... No thanks.

[null and void]

Agreed.

The only thing that the Ford Co has right here is that Sync doesn’t actually do anything related to driving or the basic mechanical functionality of the vehicle, only the entertainment and phone systems.

BSOD is bad enough.

Imagine having the BROD (Blue Road Of Death)!

[TalonDJ]

Yeah, producing any old electro magnetic pulse is not hard. Producing one that is powerful enough to weaponize IS hard. Much harder than that article suggests. They have not already been developed. Not one that is of any military use. What has been developed and is still being worked toward fielding are directed microwave weapons. The article reads like ones on flying saucers. They bring up the reality of electric thrusters and then totally gloss over or ignore the fact they are completely impractical and don’t have enough power to lift anything useful. Instead that just allude that since the principles were discovered many decades ago the some secret program must have made them workable by now. Anyway, if it had been any sort of EMP the display systems would have almost certainly rebooted and they didn’t.

[CodeMasterPhilzar]

I'm wondering if there is a tiny pinhole reset button on the Sync equipped vehicles... Or if once in a while you're going to have to disconnect the positive battery terminal and wait two minutes for a power-off reset/reboot. ;-)

Of course, knowing MS's history with Windows "phoning home" so much... Maybe at night it sits in your garage, uses your cell phone, and calls Redmond to tell them if you have any non-DRM music loaded on your car. :-(

[null and void]

More likely, loading a non-DRM track voids the warranty and degrades performance by 80%.