AIDS Patients Face Downside of Living Longer (effects of AIDS drugs "worse than having AIDS")

New York Times ^ | January 6, 2008 | JANE GROSS

[GodGunsGuts]

Those explanations do not satisfy Larry Kramer, founder of several AIDS advocacy groups. Mr. Kramer, 73 and a long-term survivor, said he had always suspected “it was only a matter of time before stuff like this happened” given the potency of the antiretroviral drugs. “How long will the human body be able to tolerate that constant bombardment?” he asked. “Well, we are now seeing that many bodies can’t. Once again, just as we thought we were out of the woods, sort of, we have good reason again to be really scared.”

[jas3]

That’s the best advice I have heard in a long, long time.

Are you commenting on what you consider to be good medical advice now?

Are you a doctor?

jas3

[InterceptPoint]

So it ain't much, but HIV+ people are better off on ARVs then six feet under.

jas3: What do think is the best evidence that failure to use ARVs is fatal for those who are HIV positive.?

[jas3]

Except, unlike cancer, they put completely healthy HIV+ patients on chemo, and keep them on it, until the day they die.

People with HIV are no more "healthy" than people with dengue are "healthy". And ARV treatment has been repeated proven to extend lifespan of HIV+ people.

Why do you insist on posting comments that suggest HIV+ people should not take medication?

jas3

[jas3]

If people took your advice, AIDS would disappear in short order IMHO.

Sadly the advice you recommend would kill thousands of people.

You are not qualified to give out medical advice, and yet you repeatedly do so.

jas3

[Lead Moderator]

Excerpt only rules on NYT material applies downthread too.

[GodGunsGuts]

Be prepared to go on forever with jas3. He claims to be a scientist, and yet I kicked his you know what in a 500+ reply debate re: AIDS. Unfortunately, the thread was pulled. But be prepared for jas3 to go on forever using a scattershot approach designed to keep you chasing your tail. If you are going to engage him, my suggestion is to ignore his scattershots and focus on one thing at a time, and don’t leave the point until you have thoroughly proved him wrong. Just a little advice from your friendly, neighborhood GGG.

[GodGunsGuts]

Sorry about that. I didn’t know the NYT had to be excerpted. I excerpted it to draw attention to Larry Kramer. Won’t happen again.

[GodGunsGuts]

For instance, if you look at his “AIDS denialist” diatribe in poste #76, you will notice that he is still posting a link to “Does drug use cause AIDS?.” I showed how Duesberg et al not only thoroughly destroyed the Ascher paper, but demonstrated that it is actually powerful evidence in favor of the drug-AIDS hypothesis. And yet, jas3 continues to post it.

[jas3]

Actually, there are a plethora of otherwise healthy heterosexual men, women and children who, if Duesberg et all are correct (see post #2 and #6), are being maimed or killed by the very chemotherapy drugs they use to treat AIDS.

No, there are not "a plethora". There are a few rare people who contract HIV who can live with it with no adverse consequences. The are a tiny fraction of the population.

Duesberg is not correct. You repeatedly state his long disproven theories as fact, when the entire medical community dismissed them decades ago.

The current drugs used to treat HIV+ are quite effective. If you think otherwise, then you should submit a scientific paper to a medical journal, and not render medical advice on Free Republic.

jas3

[jas3]

Well that would be the first, and the AIDS establishment would have rushed her case into publication had they ever heard about it.

No, it would not be the first. Check out the CDC site for others that are MORE THAN 20 years old.

Why do you keep making up nonsense?

jas3

[GodGunsGuts]

Duesberg and other scientists have been submitting papers to the journals, but they have not only banned him and others from publishing, but they have banned him from replying even when it is the AIDS establishment is writing about him. Thus, it is necessary for this controversy to leave the hallowed halls of science and be taken directly to the public. This is happened many times before, and it will happen again, just as it is happening now.

[jas3]

The key is a grassroots campaign to demand that our local congressional reps hold hearings and start asking the tough questions. That’s why the House of Reps have small districts and have to run for election every two years. The framers designed their office so they would be accountable to THE PEOPLE.

Yeah...that's a really effective use of tax dollars. We should also insist that money be spent on investigating the real cause of beri beri and scurvey.

If you have a radical theory, publish it in a scientific journal. If you are right, the scientific community will eventually recognize it.

Trying to get POPULAR SUPPORT for a scientific theory is like holding a vote to determine the outcome of a chemical reaction.

jas3

[GodGunsGuts]

Corrected version:

Duesberg and other scientists have been submitting papers to the science journals, but they have not only banned him and others from publishing, but they have banned him from replying even when the AIDS establishment is writing about him! Thus, it is necessary for this controversy to leave the hallowed halls of science and be taken directly to the public. This has happened many times before, and it will happen again, just as it is happening now.

[Lead Moderator]

No problem, thanks.

[jas3]

I submit that these individuals were exclusively killed by AIDS chemotherapy drugs—especially AZT.

You are welcome to hold whatever fantasies you like, but your complete lack of medical qualifications suggests that your submissions are made entirely from ignorance.

jas3

[jas3]

Rusty:

You are exactly correct in your analysis.

And I completely agree that "If the complainers think the treatments are causing them problems, it is within their right to terminate treatment."

What is particularly scary is people like GodsGunsGuts repeatedly post long disproven CONSPIRACY THEORIES that AIDS is a fiction pushed on conservatives by liberals, who all the time knew that it was gay drugs that caused AIDS.

My fear is that people will read those lies on this public site, believe them, reject treatment and die.

There are many many examples of that happening already. And there are cases of parents withholding drugs from their children, who later died of AIDS.

jas3

[jas3]

Who dies of AIDS anymore?

People who follow the medical advice of GodsGunsGuts and reject ARV therapy die of AIDS. That's pretty much it.

jas3

[jas3]

All very good points. However, if you take the time to read Duesberg’s paper closely, I think you will find that all these anomalies are addressed and answered. What’s unfortunate in regards to the AIDS debate is that very few people are willing or feel qualified to take the time to sort these issues out.

Very few people, except for the entire medical community and research community worldwide, all whom have looked at Duesberg's "evidence" and all (except a TINY minority) of whom rejected Duesberg's theories more than a decade ago.

Repeatedly posting long discredited scientific theories on a political website will not make them true.

jas3

[jas3]

...otherwise healthy HIV+ heterosexual men, women and children are still being put on AIDS chemotherapy drugs....

because if they are not, they will rapidly die of AIDS.

jas3

[jas3]

What year was this, and what AIDS-defining disease(s) did she die of???

In order to continue denying that HIV causes AIDS, despite the unquestionable evidence that he refuses to actually read, GodsGunsGuts will claim that your dead friend is either a drug user herself or was killed by AZT.

Don't try to tell him otherwise, because he will redefine anyone who died of AIDS prior to AZTs approval in 1987 as having died of something else or as a drug user.

jas3