AIDS Patients Face Downside of Living Longer (effects of AIDS drugs "worse than having AIDS")

New York Times ^ | January 6, 2008 | JANE GROSS

[GodGunsGuts]

Those explanations do not satisfy Larry Kramer, founder of several AIDS advocacy groups. Mr. Kramer, 73 and a long-term survivor, said he had always suspected “it was only a matter of time before stuff like this happened” given the potency of the antiretroviral drugs. “How long will the human body be able to tolerate that constant bombardment?” he asked. “Well, we are now seeing that many bodies can’t. Once again, just as we thought we were out of the woods, sort of, we have good reason again to be really scared.”

[nicmarlo]

Who is Duesberg??

[fella]

Almost two decades of unprecedented efforts in research costing US taxpayers over $50 billion have failed to defeat Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS)

But on the other hand have made many university professors and professional researchers very happy with years of six figure salaries and unfettered expense paid travel.

[Proud_texan]

Thanks for the addition info and the link.

What makes some viruses more easily immunized against (if that's the right word) than others?

I would guess quickly mutating viruses, like the common cold, mutate quickly while others, like smallpox don't and like how flu shots are designed for a specific strain(s)?

I've always wondered about a cheap and effective vaccine for cold sores. I can handle the occassional cold but for me a cold sore is a major pain in the mouth. I've seen that anywhere from 25% to 80% (pick your study)of the populace has HSV-1, guess with a market that large if it could be done it would be done.

[GodGunsGuts]

Very sad, and very true. And for what? The “War on AIDS” has been a complete failure.

[jas3]

Thanks,
The ‘Burn the Witch’ crowd are quite annoying and tiresome.

You are welcome.
Yes indeed, they are annoying. But I'm highly motivated because:

A). I love FR.
B). I respect the people here to be smart enough to read the facts and make up their own mind.
C). People who don't get the facts might come to conclusions that would directly lead to the illness or death of them or those they advise.
D). "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Winston Churchill ...

I'm doing the pants putting on part and hiking around the world thing. It ain't fun, but it is necessary.

jas3

[GodGunsGuts]

Your sources only say they were infected with HIV. Duesberg et al maintain HIV is harmless. Did any of the progress to full-blown AIDS?

[najida]

Yeah, sometimes putting the pants on the truth while it’s moving can be trickey :)

[CDHart]

I don't rejoice at anyone's suffering. The fact remains that the large majority of AIDS patients got it in only one way. I am being treated for lung cancer because I smoked for 35 years. I'm not asking the government to help me with my medical bills and I'm not asking for sympathy. Yes, I did largely bring this on myself. There are, however, some people who get lung cancer who never smoked in their lives. I don't "rejoice" at their suffering, either.

Carolyn

[js1138]

Who is Duesberg??

Apparent a close personal friend of GodGunsGuts. Someone who has deticated his life to proving that anal sex doesn't spread AIDS.

[nicmarlo]

You are arguing that AIDS does not come from HIV infection?

I won’t go there with you.

[jas3]

Who is Duesberg??

He's a formerly great scientist who has it stuck in his head that HIV/AIDS is caused by gay men using drugs. He had a small following in the late 80s to mid 90s and appeared on a lot of popular TV shows like "Tony Brown" and in a bunch of popular magazines.

His theories were disproven well over a decade ago, but there is one Freeper who insists on spamming us with his stuff over and over and over again and explaining how there is this great big Conspiracy Theory about HIV/AIDS.

Our Freeper friend posts an article on HIV/AIDS of a few lines, then drops in a giant text bomb about his theory. He's done it seven times so far in the last week.

jas3

[GodGunsGuts]

==Apparent a close personal friend of GodGunsGuts. Someone who has deticated his life to proving that anal sex doesn’t spread AIDS.

js1138, as far as I’m concerned that statement was designed to start another flame war. You know damn well what I think, so quit misrepresenting me to other FReepers. Duesberg maintains that it is the massive quantities of drugs that male homosexuals use to FACILITATE the massive numbers of anal sex encounters they have in the bathhouse/fast-lane scene that are killing them, not HIV. As for intravenous drug users, Duesberg et al believe it is not the “dirty” HIV-tainted needles that are killing them, but the DRUGS THAT COME THROUGH THOSE NEEDLES. Add to that, all the people who have been killed by AZT and other AIDS chemotherapy drugs, and Duesberg says that just about accounts for 100% of AIDS cases in the United States and Europe.

Finally, stop deliberately misrepresenting my position, either by commission or omission. Thanks you—GGG

[jas3]

You are arguing that AIDS does not come from HIV infection?

I won’t go there with you.

You got it. That is the crux of his argument.

jas3

[nicmarlo]

HIV/AIDS is caused by gay men using drugs.

You mean as in created that way? Or is a form of transmission that way (I agree, it is a form of transmission via needles). This Duesberg believes that it is DRUG USE that causes AIDS? That is insane.

[tacticalogic]

If there's not another scientist anywhere in the world that's published anything that supports his ideas after almost 10 years, I'm not going to waste my time with it. Like I said, your claims of the "AIDS establishment" being responsible for his theories being ignored everywhere in the world, for the last 10 years just aren't adding up.

[jas3]

Who is Duesberg??

Apparent a close personal friend of GodGunsGuts. Someone who has deticated his life to proving that anal sex doesn't spread AIDS.

That pretty much sums it up. Duesberg and his propagandist allow their disgust with what they termed "bathhouse homosexuals" in an earlier thread to cloud their reasoning.

They view AIDS as punishment for immoral behavior, so any facts which don't support that belief, they ignore.

Most of the people who still follow Duesberg are California hippie types who live in communes and believe in the healing power of crystals or the Loch Ness Monster*.

jas3

p.s. I wish I was kidding about the Loch Ness Monster, but I'm not....

[nicmarlo]

You got it. That is the crux of his argument.

Everything I have ever read (and this dates back to the late 80's, I think), contradicts that supposition, even materials I read which also refuted CDC claims at the time.

[jas3]

If there's not another scientist anywhere in the world that's published anything that supports his ideas after almost 10 years, I'm not going to waste my time with it. Like I said, your claims of the "AIDS establishment" being responsible for his theories being ignored everywhere in the world, for the last 10 years just aren't adding up.

But tactical...don't you know that the "AIDS establishment" controls the independent judgement of every medical researcher and scientist in the whole world? Recently I visited India, South Korea, and China where all the researchers had recently undergone new brain chip implants by the "AIDS establishment" to stop them from thinking independent thoughts.

Fortunately though, the "AIDS establishment's" new chip is only about half as effective as the chip Oprah has been implanting in housewives around the United States.

jas3

[GodGunsGuts]

==If there’s not another scientist anywhere in the world that’s published anything that supports his ideas after almost 10 years, I’m not going to waste my time with it.

I kind of figured you’d say that. I could give you a number of recent papers written by other scientists who are in support of Duesberg. But seeing how you have made it obvious that your mind is closed, I will no longer waste my time. If you wish to remain ignorant about the science of this controversy that’s your business. But then you should also do the honest thing and stop pretending you understand what you are so loudly protesting against.

[js1138]

I noticed that GGG, in his reply to me and pinged to you, failed to actually deny that he is a friend of Duesberg, and failed to deny that Duesberg has destroyed his scientific career by crusading for the idea that anal sex doesn't spread the infectious disease that leads to AIDS.

Among the things that GGG and Duesberg ignore is that there are quite a few cases of health care workers infected with HIV through exposure to patients' blood, who have developed AIDS. Even one case of a person acquiring AIDS as a result of infection would establish infection as the cause.

They also neglect to mention that AIDS was epidemic and that people were dying long before antiviral treatments were used.

They fail to mention that while recreational drugs were used by homosexuals in the 80s, the syndrome known as AIDS followed the classic distribution path of an infectious disease, spreading from a localized area to areas visited by infected people. Drug use does not follow this pattern.

GGG and Duesberg cite absolutely no laboratory animal research showing that recreational drugs cause immune deficiency disease.

GGG and Duesberg ignore the fact that when the three drug antiviral cocktail was developed, it was first used on AIDS patients who were near death. The results of these clinical tests are the main reason for the continued use of the antivirals.

GGG and Duesberg ignore the clinical experience of thousands of physicians who treat AIDS patients, one of whom is a ten year Freeper. Such people are ignored or called liars.

GGG posts an article to start this thread dealing with the problems of long term AIDS patients. He ignores the fact that if antiviral drugs were causing AIDS, there would be no long term survivors. He also ignores the fact that the unpleasant side effects of the drugs are completely different from the symptoms of AIDS.