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To: DoughtyOne

“the surge is not working...there’s been no political progress. let’s pull out”

look. Reagan was for amnesty. That idea (IRCA) actually passed unlike bush’s plan which didn’t go anywhere. Reagan didn’t veto spending and tax increases. He accepted deficits. Reagan appointed Sandra day o’connor. You’d rather have a democrat instead?

There’s no such thing as a perfect conservative in office. That’s reality. Liberals understand incrementalism. Conservatives don’t and that is why liberals are more successful.

I think we’ve made a lot of progress. We have such high standards as a result of our progress that we don’t appreciate what we have and willing to throw it all away just to send a “message”


102 posted on 01/09/2008 12:51:26 AM PST by ari-freedom (If it makes sense, then it doesn't belong in our public schools.)
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To: ari-freedom
“the surge is not working...there’s been no political progress. let’s pull out”

I believe that I have stated on this thread that I do support Bush's policies in Iraq, Afghanistan and the region.  As for his actions on the home front, he gets an F minus.

look. Reagan was for amnesty.

I'm going to make a reasoned response here, even though the situation that precipitated the 1986 Immigration fix bears little resemblence to what we are dealing with today.

In 1986, Reagan was trying to deal with what was described as one million illegals that had accumulated in our nation over two or three decades.  Today we are dealing with anywhere from 20 to 40 million that have accumulated over 17 years.  Yes, I know that sounds like overkill, but I have actually seen one hispanic source claim there are fifty million illegals in our nation today.  I doubt that, but what we are dealing with today bears absolutely not resemblance to what Reagan faced.

Reagan signed on to a bill that was to provide amnesty to one million illegals.  As part of that bill, there were a number of new immigration laws that went into effect at the same time.  Border enforcement, stiff penalties to employers that were caught employing illegal aliens, it was a comprehensive package designed to put and end to illegal immigration once and for all.

Reagan signed on for one million.  Three and a half million signed up.  The new immigration guidelines were never inforced.

Reagan did not grant amnesty and then devise a new plan to legalize millions more people to come across our border every year under a massive worker program.  That's exactly what Bush's program would have done.

That idea (IRCA) actually passed unlike bush’s plan which didn’t go anywhere.

I believe I've covered the valid reasons why Bush's plan didn't fly.

Reagan didn’t veto spending and tax increases.

Under Ronald Reagan, the federal government's revenue doubled.  He did get a massive tax decrease, and that's why the revenues skyrocketed.  It is true he didn't veto the spending.  The democrat controlled Congress spent like there was no tomorrow.  Reagan may have felt compelled to allow spending for two reasons.  He took over an economy on the ropes.  Carter and his incompetent crew had run this nation into the ground.  Goverment spending is a quick way to get people to work.  It pumps money into the homes of millions of Americans and sparks monetary activity in local communities.  In addition to this, Reagan wanted to rebuild the military.  I believe he doubled the size of our Navy and modernized a lot of other military concerns.  In order to get his agenda approved, I'm sure he had to allow the dems to get their wish lists in too.  I don't like massive spending.  I don't like the way Congress spreads money around for favors in home districts.

Yes, I believe Reagan could have done better with spending.  The results were that our economy turned around broadly, relatively quickly.  And our Military was revitalized.

He accepted deficits. Reagan appointed Sandra day o’connor. You’d rather have a democrat instead?

I'm not going to spend my time listing all the good things that Reagan did, but I will say it was national and international in scope.  Reagan traveled the world spreading the good word of the United States.  When he took office there were something like ten to fifteen communist states that were no longer communist when he left.  He drove Russia out of Business.  He did not finance their military buildup so that our young men and women in the military would have to die fighting them.

I wish I could say the same for the 'conservative' we have in there now.

There’s no such thing as a perfect conservative in office. That’s reality. Liberals understand incrementalism. Conservatives don’t and that is why liberals are more successful.

Oh our side understands it alright.  If you think they're not incrementalists, you're missing the whole point.

I think we’ve made a lot of progress. We have such high standards as a result of our progress that we don’t appreciate what we have and willing to throw it all away just to send a “message”

Oh please.  We're sitting ducks.  We have 70,000 wahabbi muslims in our nation right now on student visas.  That's progress?

Oh I appreciate what we have.  And evidently I appreciate it a lot more than someone at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue does.

118 posted on 01/09/2008 1:32:10 AM PST by DoughtyOne (< fence >< sound immigration policies >< /weasles >< /RINOs >< /Reagan wannabees that are liberal >)
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To: ari-freedom

Reagan Would Not Repeat Amnesty Mistake

By Edwin Meese, III

Human Events Online
December 13, 2006

What would Ronald Reagan do? I can’t tell you how many times I have been asked that question, on virtually every issue imaginable.

As much as we all want clarity and certainty, I usually refrain from specific answers. That’s because it is very difficult to directly translate particular political decisions to another context, in another time. The better way to answer the question—and the way President Reagan himself would approach such questions—is to understand Reagan’s principles and how they should apply in today’s politics, and review past decisions and consider what lessons they have for us.

Immigration is one area where Reagan’s principles can guide us, and the lessons are instructive.

I was attorney general two decades ago during the debate over what became the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. President Reagan, acting on the recommendation of a bipartisan task force, supported a comprehensive approach to the problem of illegal immigration, including adjusting the status of what was then a relatively small population. Since the Immigration and Naturalization Service was then in the Department of Justice, I had the responsibility for directing the implementation of that plan.

President Reagan set out to correct the loss of control at our borders. Border security and enforcement of immigration laws would be greatly strengthened—in particular, through sanctions against employers who hired illegal immigrants. If jobs were the attraction for illegal immigrants, then cutting off that option was crucial.

He also agreed with the legislation in adjusting the status of immigrants—even if they had entered illegally—who were law-abiding long-term residents, many of whom had children in the United States. Illegal immigrants who could establish that they had resided in America continuously for five years would be granted temporary resident status, which could be upgraded to permanent residency after 18 months and, after another five years, to citizenship. It wasn’t automatic. They had to pay application fees, learn to speak English, understand American civics, pass a medical exam and register for military selective service. Those with convictions for a felony or three misdemeanors were ineligible.

If this sounds familiar, it’s because these are pretty much the same provisions included in the Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006, which its supporters claim is not amnesty. In the end, slight differences in process do not change the overriding fact that the 1986 law and the recent Senate legislation both include an amnesty. The difference is that President Reagan called it for what it was.

Lesson of 1986

The lesson from the 1986 experience is that such an amnesty did not solve the problem. There was extensive document fraud, and the number of people applying for amnesty far exceeded projections. And there was a failure of political will to enforce new laws against employers. After a brief slowdown, illegal immigration returned to high levels and continued unabated, forming the nucleus of today’s large population of illegal aliens.

So here we are, 20 years later, having much the same debate and being offered much the same deal.

What would President Reagan do? For one thing, he would not repeat the mistakes of the past, including those of his own administration. He knew that secure borders are vital, and would now insist on meeting that priority first. He would seek to strengthen the enforcement of existing immigration laws. He would employ new tools—like biometric technology for identification, and cameras, sensors and satellites to monitor the border—that make enforcement and verification less onerous and more effective.

One idea President Reagan had at the time that we might also try improving on is to create a pilot program that would allow genuinely temporary workers to come to the United States—a reasonable program consistent with security and open to the needs and dynamics of our market economy.

And what about those already here? Today it seems to me that the fair policy, one that will not encourage further illegal immigration, is to give those here illegally the opportunity to correct their status by returning to their country of origin and getting in line with everyone else. This, along with serious enforcement and control of the illegal inflow at the border—a combination of incentives and disincentives—will significantly reduce over time our population of illegal immigrants.

Lastly, we should remember Reagan’s commitment to the idea that America must remain open and welcoming to those yearning for freedom. As a nation based on ideas, Ronald Reagan believed that that there was something unique about America and that anyone, from anywhere, could become an American. That means that while we seek to meet the challenge of illegal immigration, we must keep open the door of opportunity by preserving and enhancing our heritage of legal immigration—assuring that those who choose to come here permanently become Americans. In the end, it was his principled policy—and it should be ours—to “humanely regain control of our borders and thereby preserve the value of one of the most sacred possessions of our people: American citizenship.”


178 posted on 01/09/2008 4:04:08 AM PST by Sybeck1 (McCain or Huckabee will never see my support at the ballot box)
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To: ari-freedom

“Reagan was for amnesty.”

When the population of illegals was a fraction of what it is now and they were not bleeding the public coffers of monies that could help legitimate citizens.


219 posted on 01/09/2008 4:41:29 AM PST by Rb ver. 2.0 (Global warming is the new Marxism.)
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