Posted on 01/08/2008 4:09:13 PM PST by tantiboh
Mitt Romney is facing an unexpected challenge in Iowa from rival Mike Huckabee, who has enjoyed a groundswell of support from religious voters, particularly evangelical Christians wary of the clean-cut former Massachusetts governor because of his Mormon religion.
The common worry among evangelicals is that if Romney were to capture the White House, his presidency would give legitimacy to a religion they believe is a cult. Since the LDS church places heavy emphasis on proselytizing -- there are 53,000 LDS missionaries worldwide -- many mainstream Christians are afraid that Mormon recruiting efforts would increase and that LDS membership rolls would swell.
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THE ONLY PROBLEM with those fears is that they don't add up. Evangelicals may be surprised to learn that the growth of church membership in Massachusetts slowed substantially during Romney's tenure as governor. In fact, one could make the absurdly simplistic argument that Romney was bad for Mormonism.
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ONE WAY TO GAUGE what might happen under a President Romney would be to look at what happened during the period of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games. Held in Salt Lake City, they were dubbed the "Mormon Olympics."
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Despite all the increased attention, worldwide the Church grew only slightly, and in fact in the year leading up to the games the total number of congregations fell. Overall, from 2000 to 2004, there was a 10.9 percent increase in memberships and a 3.6 percent increase in congregations.
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The LDS church is likely to continue its current modest-but-impressive growth whether or not Romney wins the White House. Perhaps the only real worry for evangelicals is that, if elected, the former Massachusetts governor will demonstrate to Americans that Mormons don't have horns.
Carrie Sheffield, a member of the LDS Church, is a writer living in Washington, D.C.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled." "You have judged correctly," Jesus said.Let's actually look at the scripture in Context:
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.So, he asked him to judge gratitude based on forgiveness of sins, not judging of a man's soul.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
12. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?I am not complaining because you are expelling me from a Church (Methodist, Catholic, or Pentecostal, etc.) you are telling me I don't believe in Jesus, (A faith) but there is no way for you to know what I actually believe.
13. God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
2. Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3. Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
4. Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
5. I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?So, you have saints going to court with Saints in front of "Unbelievers" and Paul is advocating that they find an arbiter who is a believer instead. Again this has nothing to do with judging someone's soul. "Shows an amazing lack of Biblical knowledge." is correct, but not the way you meant it.
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.So, if you judge others, you will be judged accordingly, so don't judge others...
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?If anyone tries to correct anyone else while they themselves are imperfect, it's a sin.
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.This is in it's own paragraph, and basically says there are things you don't tell people who are not ready. Milk before Meat anyone?
7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:God will answer those who ask, asking is a Good thing, God will not be angry at the person who asks for a good thing. Back to my refrain...
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.I can and do confess that Jesus is my savior, I have repeatedly testified that I received this knowledge from God in response to a prayer about the Book of Mormon The answer that I received from God testified of the Book of Mormon and of Jesus' divinity. Thus, I know it was of God for First John 4:2 tells me so.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The proof of this twisted state is readily seen in their continuous efforts to sow doubt in the Bible, promote their 'church' as the only source of Holy Spirit power and therefore entry into God's Kingdom cannot happen without the Mormon baptism, even if done for the long dead.
For months, servants of this false peepstone prophet and his demon muse have sought to denigrate the Bible, use isolated single verses out of context to affirm the false doctrines and creeds of Mormonism, negate the Gospel of Grace (by pushing their 'after all that you can do' heresy), and whine 'bigot' and or 'mormon hater' at anyone who stands in opposition to their demonspawned religion of Smithian divination via a peep stone placed in his hat.
There is one very important result from this exercise of receiving written abuse, taunts, insults, condescension, and juvenile posturing from these cult followers, they are exposed for what they cannot help but be as followers of a lying, adulterous, divination peepstone conman. These apologists cannot help themselves for they are Mormons dedicated to promoting mormonism as 'restored christianity' thus insulting Orthodox Christianity in order to pull Christians and seeks of Christ away from the fellowship of other Christians in Biblical Christianity.
It is getting to the point that when you see a tantiboh or Delphi User or Dan9698 or sevenbak or Grig or tracer or restornu post you can hear faint echos of Pilate spittling "What is truth" or even Satan hissing out "You shall not surely die, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
It's always the same from Satan, he sows doubt first, in effect calling God a failure and or liar, then inserting his false religion to 'burn the bosom' so it appears to be the same thing which happened to the disciples who walked and talked with Jesus on the road to Emmaus.
There is no debate when it comes to Christianity. You either belong to Christ or you don’t. I am not debating you and just telling you the facts. You either accept them and live or reject them or perish.
For my part of that, you are listening to the wrong echo.
I ask for you to explain how and where the doctrine as taught by the Apostolic Christian Church became the doctrine espoused by you.
I gave you and independent reference from the Catholic Encyclopedia showing what was taught by Apostolic Christians. That reference is truth, so how do you twist that to be an echo?
I asked you for an explanation. I did not make any echo.
Thanks for the ping and your equating me to Satan, but I’m not playing in your sandbox these days. Take it somewhere else.
No, you obsequious liar, you tried to assert that my offering (regarding ONLY THAT Theophilus used the word trinity came before Tertullian used it) was made to asseet that Theophilus established the creedal truth of ‘the trinity’. You’re a lying deceiving manipulator, serving demonic forces with all your strength. You will not taunt me into any other responses to your demon’s whispers that you repeat in posts. Have a nice day.
The cool thing about copy and paste, it is possible to go to a post by you #587 of this thread and read what you said.
It is inconvient that copy and paste works that way, isn't it.
Your post 587. Go look and see that it says this.
?... And you still think there is nothing in the Bible referring to the trinity prior to Tertullian? You either have parents who won't read to you or you're just an immature apologist playing games at FR.
Maybe you can find an educated person to read the following to you and explain it:
“In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of “the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (”Ad. Autol.”, II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (”De pud.” c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen (”In Ps. xvii”, 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen’s pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:”
So...it is not true that Tertullian was the first one to use the term. It is not true Tertullian invented the doctrine, and it is not true there was any Bishop of Rome who rejected this doctrine.
Tertullian used the word trinitas in Against Praxeas, which was written around AD 200 -- eleven or twelve years before he became a Montanist.
In fact, the term can be seen used in the greek form first by Theophilus of Antioch around the year 180, which pretty much shoots this strange Tertullian theory to pieces.
End quote of post 587.
Well, Well, Well, by going back to what you said, I was correct I said you implied that Tertullian wasn't the first to write about the doctrine, but rather it was Theophilus.
Nevertheless, your own quote says the doctrine is not in the scriptures.
Quote, “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together...
Ah... the old 'Prove a negative' ploy!
Tell ME that the warning given here does NOT apply to the PERSONAGES that visited Joe.
Galatians 1:7-10
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. |
Oh yeah??
'Splain THIS; Lucy!
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
I agree!!!
That ol' Freedom of Speech thing really needs to go!
--MormonDude(it's them PRESBYTERIANS that's behind all this!!)
Good!
You now believe in the Trinity!
Sigh...
It's merely the Word of GOD.
Couple of things here. It would be nice if nobody brought up religion during the campaign. It really isn't relevant to deciding who will best run the country. If you and those who think like you could just leave it alone then we'd all be better off. Secondly, why is it that you feel that Mormons are incapable of telling the truth?
You believed the same as the Apostolic Christians before you believed something different?
Wrong again!
YOUR 'jesus' is different from mine. That is what I'm saying.
YOUR 'jesus' is speechless when the Father, in human form, speaks.
MY Jesus says what He hears His Father say.
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