Evangelicals Against Mitt

"... God will never allow Satan to answer a prayer to him, or he would cease to be God for Satan would be more powerful than God and God would not be keeping the promises he made in the Bible, and God always keeps his word." You're just flat-out wrong. Here's why: if Satan can get God into a position of reacting, Satan will be in charge; you claim to have prayed and gotten an answer which you interpret to be God affirming the book of mormon fabricated by Joe Smith; Satan, in my opinion, was the actual author of the b of m so your 'feeling' was most likely caused by Satanic response.

If Satan can get Mormons to praying for answers to false 'scriptures' then Satan is the one deciding what God will do, by the default position that creates if 'only' God were the one who could answer such a misdirected prayer for enlightenment. When a sorcerer prays to God and gets an answer, is only God able to answer the sorcerer's prayer? HAh! Satan has you believing that!

What if I prayed to God asking him to show me which of two wrong choices I should follow? If I receive a response to that prayer telling me to do one or the other, should I expect that response came from God? That is the specious dilemma you create when you pray to God asking if something that contradicts His Word is true. To be sure, the b of m contains many Bible passages, some even placed in the b of m as the Mesorites mistranslated them to eliminate the prophecies of Jesus as Messiah as best they could.

If the b of m is true then there are passages in it which are not true so you would not expect God to affirm it as true. If there are no true passages in it then you would not expect God to affirm it. If it is wholly true then how can it contain things which contradict the Bible which we both believe is God's Word? And why would you expect God to be the source of affirming something which contains contradictions to His Word? There is no way the B of M is anything but a novel, a poorly written novel at that.

God is not the author of confusion, and the b of m is a source of confusion which can only be rectified in Mormons' minds if they claim the Bible is accurate 'so far as it is accurately translated'. But when one reads the Joe Smith version of the King James Bible, only more fabrications and falsehood surface, so your own peepstone prophet couldn't make a 'more accurate translation' thus he is not only a false prophet, false revelator using divination to fool the people, he is also a servant of the author of confusion.

~”First and foremost, why would you make such a specious assertion?”~

I only repeat what I see. You have said time and again that our works are useless in terms of obtaining grace. You have said that we cannot add to or subtract from the Atonement of Christ; that is true, but you then extend that to mean that all we have to -do- is profess to know Christ - that obedience otherwise means nothing. You make the argument that obedience is merely a symptom of having accepted Christ, which is also true, but that obedience is not something that Christ really expects of us, which I refute.

It’s something of an “easy button” of religion, in my view. Christ expects us to strive to follow His example. If we do not follow Him, we are not followers of Him.

~”But you’re right, I don’t need them to be worthy of His Grace because I could never be worthy of such a gift ... you see, ‘being worthy’ is another way, the Mormon way of saying ‘earn’ without using the specific word.”~

You might be surprised, despite your persistent misconceptions, to learn that Mormon theology agrees with you; we fully embrace the fact that we are forever unprofitable servants. The difference between you and us is that we believe that, while we are saved by the Grace of Christ, that Grace is extended to us only upon our exercise of faith in Christ -and- our good-faith efforts to obey Him. (Works and true faith do go hand in hand, by the way.) We make mistakes. The point is to recover from them and work to do better.

Here’s the core issue: “Being worthy” is not a goal. It is a condition, a state of being. You don’t reach a finish line and suddenly “become worthy.” You “are worthy” in accordance with your faith in Christ and your efforts to follow Him. A person who is willful against God is not “worthy.” A person who is humble and teachable and willing to submit to God is “worthy.” The relative level of personal perfection matters little, for Grace makes up for any such deficit.

I do not believe I can make my attempts to resolve your misconceptions on the topic any more plain than that.

In short, God gave us commandments. Not suggestions. The connotation to me is that He expects us to -do- them.

~”It’s not like shining a flashlight on their face or down on the top of their head, but it is a spiritual glow.”~

I know the glow of which you speak. Among others, I see that glow in the faces and eyes of good Latter-Day Saints.

~”Oh, to be sure, you can imitate that evidence, as Jesus taught with the story of the good Samaritan. And that story too is misused by post modernists, to try and show that even the rejected are acceptable to God if they do good things.”~

Ah, I see, so the good Samaritan, although a good person who demonstrated the charity of Christ, was damned because he did not adhere to the “true religion?” And this by an accident of his birth?

I’m sorry, but my God is more merciful and loving of His children than that.

~”The Bible teaches clearly that God puts His LIFE in the regenerate man/woman/girl/boy, as the earnest of the fuller inheritance to come as illustrated by and through the resurrection of Jesus, the first fruits of a new and radical LIFE of physicality AND soulishness that cannot be corrupted.”~

Huh? The Bible teaches that clearly, eh? I can’t even -understand- it. And I’m a member of Mensa in good standing.

Thank you, I’ll adhere to the plain and precious truths taught by the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than to the tortured and convoluted derivative philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

~”[The word “Mormon” is not in the Bible]

Neither is the word Trinity, So?”~

Ironically lost in this sidebar is the fact that Mormons did not make up the label. It was originally applied to us by our detractors as an epithet. It stuck.

~”Wow. Who is He voting for?”~

We’ve already been informed that God’s too smart to get into politics. :-)

~”Actually there is plenty of evidence [of Joseph Smith’s veracity], but only for those who are honestly seeking the truth, not for those who will dismiss everything as a “Hoax”.”~

Indeed. Well said.

Why do you suppose, DU, that the ostensibly religious would refuse to seek the truth, and would rather denigrate the joy and satisfaction that you and I have found in that truth?

It couldn’t be concern for our souls. I’m concerned for their souls, but I don’t go about bashing them. What are your thoughts as to their motivations?

Your syntax seems to suffer when you’re exercised, MHG. Perhaps it’s time to break out the sphygmomanometer?

I am astonished that you would try to posit this specious assertion; is this purposed mischaracterization technique something we may expect more of from the Mormonism Apologists?... "You make the argument that obedience is merely a symptom of having accepted Christ, which is also true, but that obedience is not something that Christ really expects of us ..." tantiboh If you ever have children, you will comprehend just how stupid that comment is. And of course you refute the scurrilous strawman you tried to stand up as if right out of my mouth.

How can it be scurrilous or a strawman? How many times have we seen you argue that faith is all one needs to be saved? How many times have we seen you criticize Mormons for, as you say, trying to “earn” their way into Heaven?

Alright, here’s your chance. Let’s eliminate all ambiguity: In addition to faith in Christ, are we expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved? Yes or no will suffice, please.

For Mormons, the answer is yes.

Do you still not understand that God puts His Holy Spirit in the 'faither' when the lost one puts his trust in Jesus to be his deliverer? Do you still not know that the old nature remains in the soul and that God's Spirit makes the human spirit alive and it is from this indwelling presence that the character of God comes forth transforming the human soul while you remain in the body of corruptible flesh?

"In addition to faith in Christ, are we expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved? Yes or no will suffice, please." There is no 'in addition' to be Saved else it would not be by Grace you are Saved not of works lest any man boast. Stop seeking to work your way to worthiness, stop working to a place where you can boast 'you did all that you could do to earn His Grace.' That's where you poor Mormon souls seem to be the most blinded.

Once saved you are a new creation born by the Spirit of God through the Grace of God in Christ. Before being saved, you might be convinced that you can keep God's Commandments, but after you're saved you realize it was impossible because the Commandments of God are a reflection of the character of God and you don't have it until He puts it in you by His Grace. Once you are in His family, what you were striving for and could not accomplish (because of death in your human spirit) becomes the outworking of a new nature! It is God in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Tantiboh, Jesus died and rose again to make dead men alive, not to make bad men good. Once a dead man is alive, born again, God can make all the good behavior He wants from His child. he does that in subtle ways but you may be assured He does not expect you to be able to accomplish that without His LIFE in you. That's why it is by Grace alone that you may be made alive from your dead state, and also why all that was created or ever will be is by His Word ... if He is not the author you are finished though your may believe yourself quite adequate or even as good as you can be.

Jesus came out of the tomb as the first fruits of what God intends as a new creation. There is nothing you can do to create that new creation. And that new order has already begun as evidenced by Jesus in resurrection and entering into the realm of God with His new body which could pass through walls, could eat and walk, and be seen and touched.

The realm of God the Jews saw as a veiled place no more than the length of a man's arm away and not accessible to men. Elisha could see over to it. Belshazzar's party central got a visit from it. A donkey spoke because she was made able to see someone standing in it. As Paul says the middle wall of partition is now taken down between man and God so the spirit of man may come directly to God when the adam body is shed. A new and glorious body will be given when the old world is swept away, a body like the one Jesus has now. To those who are in Christ Jesus there is now therefore no condemnation, because they have His Spirit in their human spirit.

I Said: I could not agree more, the Writers of the new testament were trying hard to keep the Greeks and the Hellenists from changing the church, they even prophesied that they would fail. 2nd Thessalonians 2:3

U Said: You understandably misinterpret the passage, the son of perdition has not been revealed yet, therefore it is not related to anything Smith may have seen....context, context.

there will be many who will fulfill this prophecy in smaller ways culminating with "The Anti Christ" who will come shortly before Jesus see 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

so, as I said, it was happening then. I Said: If they have faith on Christ then they are in fact Christian regardless of your labels.

U Said: Just because I place a label on a bottle of grape juice and call it champaign doesn't make it so. They are defined as two different things even though they share one thing in common - grapes.

Why not? the french do it all the time.

I Said: The Mormons Temple is for Mormons, not Christians. this is yet another specious argument.

U Said: Lets see here Mormon = Christian while Christian doesn't = mormon, right, who's being specious.

Um, are you familiar with the concept of subsets and supersets? Baptists are Christian, Methodists are christian but baptists are not Methodists and neither one are Momrons even though Momrons are also Christians. Baptists methodists and Mormons are churches, and Christianity is a faith Churches can share a faith. Faiths don't share churches. (normally, nowadays there will be an odd duck, I just know it...)

I Said: Yes, and that Challenge culminated in the Council of Nicea, go read the record.

U Said: No, the challenge has continued on through the ages. Nicea was in response to one of many challenges and at Nicea the teachings of the apostles was reaffirmed.

It was one culmination, there have been several, but since it resulted in the church affirming a mistake it was a significant change in doctrine. I know you believe the doctrine didn't change, and that's really quaint, but not backed up by the facts. Go back to new advent.org and look up Hippolytus and "Against one Noetus" here is the link I Said: Now you see exactly what I have been saying, but the fact that you believe a lie does not make you a non Mormon for you believe in him who is mighty to save, even if you misunderstand him.

U Said: What a bizzaro twist, so now I am a mormon? You sound confused.

No confusion, I was illustrating the twisted logic you were using on me, it sounded exactly as I intended it to sound.

I Said: BTW, you wave the Flag of Orthodoxy like it legitimatizes what you are saying, it is merely consensus, the majority belief is "Orthodox" it's the establishment of truth by voting on it. Jesus was many things one of them was unorthodox, that is one reason the Jews kept trying to stone him.

U Said: You are apparently ignorant of its use within this context.

There are many things i am indeed ignorant about, the finer points of brain surgery for example, language, however, I am an avid student of.

U Said: It is the core teachings of Christianity common to its primary branches, not to confuse it with the denomination or any minor theological differences. These are the things that one believes as a Christian. Any voting (probably a reference to Nicea) was to confirm the construct of the doctrinal statement, not establish new doctrine but confirm existing doctrine. IIRC, nothing becomes mormon doctrine with out a vote too.

Actually, Orthodoxy has nothing to do with Christianity per se, There is for example an orthodox way of programming, there is an orthodox way of painting a wall Orthodoxy, is conforming to convention or what is considered standard. I was specifically correct Jesus was an unorthodox Jew, he condoned his disciples plucking food from a field while traveling on the sabbath, he spoke as an authority (and the Jews always appealed to Moses or some other prophet for authority) he ate with publicans and sinners, and worst of all, he worked miracles on the sabbath! all of this made them hate him for making a mockery of their orthodoxy carefully built up around the Gospel over centuries. They would have gladly stoned him just for that. U Said: Regarding Jesus' 'unorthodoxy', be clear.

I just was.

You are inferring to the mormon doctrine that Jesus was a being separate from God.

Actually Jesus is separate from God, for he lives.

However, according to mormonism, one only becomes a god after passing from this physical life having all the boxes checked off (readers digest condensed version). Jesus had yet to go through this process, so he could not legitimally claim godhood like he did. Spirit children cannot become gods if I understand correctly, and this cannot happen until they have been born and given flesh and bone. Althought McConkie says that Jesus some how attained godhood while still in pre-existance, I've been told by mormons here that he cannot be relied upon for doctrinal teaching of lds.

Bruce R McConkie is a distant cousin of mine, and his works were not perfect neither are mine there is only one who was perfect in all his works, Jesus.

As for all this complicated mish mash you are making of our Doctrine, Jesus is the exception to many rules no one else could have resurrected himself from the grave for example. Jesus was indeed a member of the God head form before time itself was created, for he was the creator of it. as for the rest of us, we cannot become Gods for some time if we will make it at all for we need for Jesus to save us by his grace for we are not perfect as he is. As for check boxes, I assume you mean things like Baptism, etc? All will have an opportunity to accept the ordinances for God has so decreed it, that is why we perform vicarious ordinances for the dead, much as Jesus Variously suffered for our sins. Anyone who accepts the atonement has already accepted the principle of vicarious work, so such a concept it should not seem strange to a Christian.

U Said: According to what I've read Jesus first had to become flesh and then work our his salvation, then eventually after his resurrection he attained godhood, and thus couldn't claim such at the time. To maintain that Jesus was a God in his pre-existence, before He eternally progressed,contradicts the LDS fundamental doctrine of Eternal Progression.

You have this wrong, it's simply not our doctrine that you are spouting here, it's your own ignorance of that Doctrine that you are promoting here. In short. you are wrong about what we believe, and you are obviously lacking in the fundamentals and will not understand until you go back and learn those. If you will allow me an analogy, your question reminds me of a beginning algebra student who wants to understand Calculus without taking all the interim classes, it's not that the answers aren't there, you just are not ready to understand them if I gave them to you, you'd just get more puzzled.

U Said: Now, having contorted my mind,

Truly, you did that on your own.

U Said: what does the Bible really say? Jesus claimed: ‘I and the Father are one’, meaning in essence not just purpose (from the Greek construction), a statement the Jews clearly understood because they "took up stones again to stone Him"

Yeah, I covered this, Jesus himself gave an analogy of this oneness, if you don't want to accept his word but follow after your won interpretation, there is nothing I can do for you.

U Said: (Jn. 10:30-31). Jesus allowed Himself to be worshiped, despite the biblical edict that 'only God may be worshipped' (Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19:10; 22:9). Jesus was not unorthodox here, only lds interpretation.

Because he is and was a member of the Godhead, that makes him "God". BTW, wasn't allowing yourself to be worshiped a bit unorthodox? The Jews thought so.

I Said: Actually, Joseph rejected the creed as an abomination, not the people, and the "Church" is not Christianity, it's an earthly construct, like a club or a business.

U Said: The context of the passage doesn't lead one to believe that.

It does to me.

U Said: A Christian is a professor - one who professes - and we are refereed to as 'gentiles' in a derrogatory manner as a result.

Are you a descendant of Abraham? If not, you are a gentile.

In Joseph's day a professor was a teacher, you can apply alternate meanings all you want in a search to be offended where none was intended, you waste your time, there is plenty for you to be offended about in Mormonism without stretching meanings.

I Said: This is yet another place where you are wrong, we believe protestants are Christian because, you believe in Jesus Christ. We just have more we can add to your existing faith.

U Said: Straight up, the additional things are suspect. 1. Teachings of a documented peep stone viewer. 2. Manuscripts (BOM and POGP) with absent MS or contradictory MS support, absence of archaelogical support and highly questionable justifications for changes in the absence of such. 3. Polytheistic, quasi gnostic theology. Thats just for starters. Nothing there I want to associate with.

Lets see, Jesus was a documented heretic, blasphemer, who hung about with sinners, tax collectors and semi retired fishermen. He writes new scripture from thin air, and reinterprets old scripture freely in ways that are not approved by the Sanhedrin. Jesus is a disrupter of the peace and may be plotting to rebel against the Romans, and you know what they do to states that rebel! I heard he thinks he's God, if we play our cards right we may be able to get him to say tat in open court!

Your tactics sound familiar.

Did you know that Urim and Thummim are Biblical?

can you show me the original text of say revelations,you know the parchment written upon by John the Beloved? and your theology has twisted God into an incomprehensible being when we are commanded to know him.

You see how easy this is? All your arguments and your "Reasoning" is easily reversed if I just assume that I am orthodox and you are the upstart, thus it is nothing but demagoguery.

I for one am not so easily swayed by an emotional appeal.

I Said: we are members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it is you (non members) who have nicknamed us Mormons.

U Said: Ummmm better take that up with your church leadership, they are the ones who have adopted the phrase and keep it in the forfront, as well as those here refer to themselves as such.

Are they? The churches official abbreviation is LDS. They would love to use that, but people keep asking us if we are Mormons, so here we are.

I do have one serious question, how do you know that Jesus is your savior?

“The mormonm cult is not part of the Christian church by any stretch of the imagination...”

I agree with you. Did I say something in my post to lead you to believe otherwise?
__________________________________________________

No, I was just exclaiming....

What else is there about this cult that is hidden and unGodly ?????

Have you seen the Joe Smith version of the King James Bible?... You know, the Bible that Mormons will accept only in so far as it is translated correctly, which Smith added tens of thousands of words and made up prophecy of ‘his coming in these latter days’ but apparently was not able enough to ‘trasnlate’ better. Have you seen that piece of demonic work?

Is that a yes or a no?

I’m trying to cut past the ambiguity here so that I am not guilty of the misrepresentation of your beliefs that you have accused me of. But I’ve asked a straightforward yes-or-no question, and you gave me six paragraphs of theological philosophy and well-intended but misplaced chiding on how I’m blinded. And you wonder how I could possibly be confused about what you believe?

I’ll try again:
Faith in Christ is a given. Are we expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved? Yes or no, please.

I’ve seen the parts that Christians have posted here...

I Said "... God will never allow Satan to answer a prayer to him, or he would cease to be God for Satan would be more powerful than God and God would not be keeping the promises he made in the Bible, and God always keeps his word."

U Said You're just flat-out wrong. Here's why: if Satan can get God into a position of reacting, Satan will be in charge; you claim to have prayed and gotten an answer which you interpret to be God affirming the book of mormon fabricated by Joe Smith; Satan, in my opinion, was the actual author of the b of m so your 'feeling' was most likely caused by Satanic response.

Do you really think God could be "outmaneuvered by me? if so you do not know God at all.
The Bible says: First John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I prayed to God about the Book of Mormon, I received a witness that it was of God, I also received a witness that Jesus was my savior and came in the flesh. therefore, it was a witness from God the Bible says so. Nothing you can say can change the fact that I have received a witness from God, I know it, and I know that God knows that I know it. and you can persecute and call names all you like but I will testify of God's greatness and mercy toward men, I will tell my story, for it is what God expects me to do.

U Said If Satan can get Mormons to praying for answers to false 'scriptures' then Satan is the one deciding what God will do, by the default position that creates if 'only' God were the one who could answer such a misdirected prayer for enlightenment.

A misdirected prayer for enlightenment? Wow! one of us is over reaching, and it's not me.

U Said When a sorcerer prays to God and gets an answer, is only God able to answer the sorcerer's prayer?

If the Sorcerer prays to God, yes, only God can answer his prayer, if the Sorcerer listens to God he starts changing repents of his associations with the evil one and will soon be a Christian. It's how conversion works.

U Said HAh! Satan has you believing that!

No God has me believing that when I pray he will answer. I believe that because the Bible say so in tons of places many I have already listed here, if you need a few references, I'll be glad to cite some.

Why do you believe that a prayer to God will be answered by Satan? If you do honestly believe that, then I submit that Satan has you believing that.

I Said What if I prayed to God asking him to show me which of two wrong choices I should follow? If I receive a response to that prayer telling me to do one or the other, should I expect that response came from God?

UM, how about God tells you they are both wrong? Your argument here reminds me of the Atheist I met who said he could prove God did not exist. He then said , OK, so god is all powerful right? I said yes. he said then God can't exist because he cannot create a rock so big he can't lift it. He had this big grin on his face until I said: yes, but God is also omniscient, and he said so? I said that means God is not dumb. Your arguments here seem to be that God is so dumb he can't answer anything but what and how we ask, if it's yes or no, we get yes or no. If we ask about two bad choices, we get one of them? God is not limited by my prayer, or by me or by your imagination. God will tell you the truth for he sees the Big picture. If something is half truth and half lie, God is perfectly capable if testifying of the truth, and repudiating the lie even if we are not smart enough to ask him to.

U Said That is the specious dilemma you create when you pray to God asking if something that contradicts His Word is true. To be sure, the b of m contains many Bible passages, some even placed in the b of m as the Mesorites mistranslated them to eliminate the prophecies of Jesus as Messiah as best they could.

My prior answer makes this entire line of reasoning obsolete, God is not limited by the inadequacies of our prayer, or our imagination. He will always tell us the truth, even if it is complicated, like this is true, that is not...

U Said If the b of m is true

it is.

U Said then there are passages in it which are not true

There are not.

U Said so you would not expect God to affirm it as true.

I would because it is.

U Said If there are no true passages in it then you would not expect God to affirm it.

But it is true so he will.

U Said If it is wholly true then how can it contain things which contradict the Bible which we both believe is God's Word?

The bible contradicts it self in many places Do a Quick Google on Bible Contradictions How can any book completely agree with a book that contradicts itself? The BOM corrects many of these contradictions, thus you say it contradicts the Bible, to which I would just respond, Yep, so does the Bible.

U Said And why would you expect God to be the source of affirming something which contains contradictions to His Word?

He testifies of the Bible doesn't he?

U Said There is no way the B of M is anything but a novel, a poorly written novel at that.

That is your opinion, the facts of the matter however, are entirely different and anyone who wants to know the truth can find out by putting the Book of Mormon to The Test.

U Said God is not the author of confusion, and the b of m is a source of confusion which can only be rectified in Mormons' minds if they claim the Bible is accurate 'so far as it is accurately translated'.

That is because the Bible after it's many translations is the author of confusion, or maybe you think the plethora of "christian" churches is orderly.

U Said But when one reads the Joe Smith version of the King James Bible, only more fabrications and falsehood surface, so your own peepstone prophet couldn't make a 'more accurate translation' thus he is not only a false prophet, false revelator using divination to fool the people, he is also a servant of the author of confusion.

It's funny that you keep referring to him as the "Peepstone prophet like it's going to make me mad or something, just to show what this is I could refer to you as the outhouse scriptorian, because you once read the scriptures while on the pot. It's a specious low brow attempt to annoy your opposite in a debate about religion and is on par with "bathroom" humor. I would have expected better of you.

As to Joseph's translation, it's not cannon of the church for two reasons.
1. Joseph was martyred before he finished it.
2. We don't own the copyright to it, only to the foot notes form it. The RLDS (who have since changed their name) own the copyright for it. So it's used as a commentary would be, it's interesting footnote material, and don't try to tell me you don't use a concordance, or foot notes or any commentaries that would not pass muster as scripture. Talk about a specious argument.

MHG, I understand your frustration, really I do, you are committed to your religion and you just can't lay a glove on Mormons and that's got to be frustrating to you. Look at it this way, the Phrases and Saducees were frustrated too.

Wow, Caught Back up, well, then of to bed, I'm sure I'll be slimed before morning!

BBL8R

What's happened to your reading comprehension?...

Form #249:

"In addition to faith in Christ, are we expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved? Yes or no will suffice, please." tantiboh There is no 'in addition' to be Saved else it would not be by Grace you are Saved not of works lest any man boast.

Are you under the mistaken impression that you, tantiboh, can keep the Commandments, all the Commandments? Or are you at least soft enough on yourself to apply only the New Testament summation Jesus gave?... I may rejoin this thread if and when your reading comprehension comes back.

Frustration? Bwahahaha, not with your ilk!

"Wow! one of us is over reaching, and it's not me." Delphi User Well, since the BofM contains contradictions ot the Bible, it cannot be entirely true so you in fact over reached when you asked God to verify for you that it was true. You have been given over to your delusions. In that light, see how doing all that you can do to obtain Salvation works out for you. ... Your twisted reasoning is amusing though.

Could you define “witness” for me? And locate the term in the Bible, if you will. (Hubby and I are having a discussion semi-sort of inspired by several posts.)

Ok, we’re getting closer, though the yes/no is still missing, so I want to make very sure I understand: You are saying that we are -not- expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved?

You’ve danced around it in several different ways now, ranging from the philosophical to the cryptic, so I’m still uncertain and don’t want to risk you accusing me again of misrepresenting your beliefs; please answer with a yes or a no.

~”Are you under the mistaken impression that you, tantiboh, can keep the Commandments, all the Commandments?”~

I might point out your reading comprehension problem. From my post #242: “We make mistakes. The point is to recover from them and work to do better.” I might append that this is a lifelong process, and will not be completed while we are in this life.