Posted on 01/08/2008 4:09:13 PM PST by tantiboh
Mitt Romney is facing an unexpected challenge in Iowa from rival Mike Huckabee, who has enjoyed a groundswell of support from religious voters, particularly evangelical Christians wary of the clean-cut former Massachusetts governor because of his Mormon religion.
The common worry among evangelicals is that if Romney were to capture the White House, his presidency would give legitimacy to a religion they believe is a cult. Since the LDS church places heavy emphasis on proselytizing -- there are 53,000 LDS missionaries worldwide -- many mainstream Christians are afraid that Mormon recruiting efforts would increase and that LDS membership rolls would swell.
...
THE ONLY PROBLEM with those fears is that they don't add up. Evangelicals may be surprised to learn that the growth of church membership in Massachusetts slowed substantially during Romney's tenure as governor. In fact, one could make the absurdly simplistic argument that Romney was bad for Mormonism.
...
ONE WAY TO GAUGE what might happen under a President Romney would be to look at what happened during the period of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games. Held in Salt Lake City, they were dubbed the "Mormon Olympics."
...
Despite all the increased attention, worldwide the Church grew only slightly, and in fact in the year leading up to the games the total number of congregations fell. Overall, from 2000 to 2004, there was a 10.9 percent increase in memberships and a 3.6 percent increase in congregations.
...
The LDS church is likely to continue its current modest-but-impressive growth whether or not Romney wins the White House. Perhaps the only real worry for evangelicals is that, if elected, the former Massachusetts governor will demonstrate to Americans that Mormons don't have horns.
Carrie Sheffield, a member of the LDS Church, is a writer living in Washington, D.C.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
You are greatly misunderstanding the clause...
The "no religious test" clause of the United States Constitution is found in Article VI, section 3, and states that: "...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
This has been interpreted to mean that no federal employee, whether elected or appointed, "career" or "political," can be required to adhere to or accept any religion or belief.
This clause immediately follows one requiring all federal and state officers to take an oath of support to the Constitution. This implies that the requirement of an oath, even presumably one taken "So help me God" (not a part of the presidential oath, the only one spelled out in the Constitution, but traditionally almost always added to it), does not imply any requirement by those so sworn to accept a particular religion or a particular doctrine.
The clause is cited by advocates of separation of church and state as an example of "original intent" of the Framers of the Constitution of avoiding any entanglement between church and state, or involving the government in any way as a determiner of religious beliefs or practices.
This is important as this clause represents the words of the original Framers, even prior to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
The original founders were pretty smart folks....Smarter than you and I.
For whatever that's worth.
Perhaps you can give an even more creative spin to the following?...
How was it that the BM has a near exact quote from Hamlet, the Shakespearean play? ... Or perhaps you'd feel more comfortable searching FAIR to address it stated this way? [ from http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/bomproblems.htm] ...
In the Book of Mormon, a paraphrase from Shakespeare is considered by many to be evidence of plagiarism. Here the Book of Mormon represents Lehi, who supposedly lived about 600 B.C., as saying, "the cold and silent grave from whence no traveler can return." (2 Nephi 1:14; 1:28). The Shakespearian play, Hamlet, written during the 16th century after Christ, reads, "...death, the undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Act 3, Scene 1). The similarity in the two passages is undeniable.
Then there is the the strange event in the Book of Mormon where Nephi is ordered by the "Spirit" to kill his uncle. This is uncannily similar to the scene in "Hamlet" where Hamlet's father's ghost appears to him and orders him to kill his uncle (Act 1, Scene 5) The primary difference between the two is that the "ghost" that appeared to Hamlet with these orders becomes the "Spirit" in the Book of Mormon; in fact, none other than the "Holy Spirit" (I Nephi 4:10-12; 1:110-113).
Interestingly enough, righteous Nephi is much more easily convinced that this is actually the will of God than is Hamlet. Not only does Nephi show no remorse after killing his drunken uncle, but he apparently cuts off his head without getting any blood on his uncle's clothes, for he is able to undress him, put his uncle's clothes on himself, and then impersonate him. Since the normal-sized person has about five quarts of blood in his body, this is a miracle in itself.
Nephi then proceeds to deceive his uncle's servant, steal the sacred brass plates, kidnap the servant, and take both them and him to America. The justification for these actions is explained very simply by the "Spirit:" Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief" (I Nephi 4:13; 1:114-115).
This rationale strangely echoes the prophecy of the high priest as to why Jesus should be put to death in John 11:49-50: "Ye know nothing at all, nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." Thus the importance of Laban's death is perversely placed on a similar plane as Jesus", even though Nephi violates several of the ten commandments while bringing it about (Ex. 20:13, 15, 17). This and similar types of distortion of Biblical phraseology and theology are found throughout the Book of Mormon.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:U Said: folks not taking the time to discern if what was inside was actually so. (How else would such a fraudulent doc grow in worldwide printing since then?)
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
+++++++++++++++++
Thank you for bringing this up. I hoped you would because I wanted to make the point that even though the people were taught, just a little while earlier, to pray to Father by the power given to Jesus, they like Peter the Apostle, did not always get it correct the first time, even with Christ standing right there.
This is what they were taught just before they bowed down to Jesus.
(3 Nephi 19:6-8.)
6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus.
7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people.
8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken—behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.
"...he..commanded them that they should kneel down...that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth....he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray UNTO Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God...Father...they believe in me...and they pray UNTO ME...he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray UNTO HIM...And it came to pass that JESUS BLESSED THEM AS THEY DID PRAY UNTO HIM; AND HIS COUNTENANCE DID SMILE UPON THEM, AND THE LIGHT OF HIS COUNTENANCE DID SHINE UPON THEM...AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM: PRAY ON; NEVERTHELESS THEY DID NOT CEASE TO PRAY... And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, UNTO HIM; and HE DID SMILE UPON THEM AGAIN; and behold they were white, even as Jesus." (3 Nephi 19:16-18,22,24-26, 30)
You can't get a more "sanctioned" response from Jesus than Him blessing them AS they prayed to Jesus, from Him continually "smiling upon them," and the verse where it says: AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM: PRAY ON; NEVERTHELESS THEY DID NOT CEASE TO PRAY...
If this was a rebukable "no-no" as McConkie did, Jesus would not have false led them on...or He would have openly corrected them for all time & eternity rather than folks getting the false impression that this was "smile-able" activity..."blessing-able" activity...directly encouraged by Jesus Himself to keep it up.
So, yes, I’m given a direct conflict between 3 Nephi 19:16-30 and what McConkie taught!
Go, ahead take back those words: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not “inserts itself between you & God” as you claim, it is God’s way of helping us to return to Him.
Another example is McConkie’s claim at that BYU devo not to worship Christ, other than to be “in awe” of him and “reverentially grateful.” (Give me a break!)
That also runs counter to not only the Bible (example: Hebrews 1:6), but to the Book of Mormon:
4 Nephi 4:37: 37 Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites.
2 Nephi 25:29: 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.
3 Nephi 11:17: 17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.
3 Nephi 17:10: 10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him;
See also: Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, 1 Nephi 19:10. Christ was the God of the Nephites, 2 Nephi 1:10, Moroni 8:7-8. Jesus was the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, 2 Nephi 6:8-9. Jesus was God, the great Creator, 2 Nephi 9:5. Jesus created the heavens and the earth, 3 Nephi 9:15. There was a God, & he was Christ, 2 Nephi 11:6-7. Jesus was the Christ, the Eternal God, 2 Nephi 26:12-13. Jesus was the Lord Omnipotent, who came down from heaven, Mosiah 3:5-8,17-18. Jesus was God himself, Mosiah 13:34, 15:1, Alma 42:15, 3 Nephi 11:14, Ether 3:18. Christ was God, the Father of all things, Mosiah 7:27. Jesus was the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, Mosiah 15:4, Alma 11:38-39. Jesus is God, D&C 6:2,21,37, 11:2,28, 14:2,9. Jesus is our God, D&C 17:9, 18:47, 27:1, 38:1. Jesus is the Great I AM, D&C 29:1, 38:1. !
+++++++++
To All:
Since Colofornian has used the shot gun approach to invite you to look at our Church’s teachings (not his teachings), I think you might first want have him break it down by topic, then not only show how it does not conform to his teachings, but also show us his understanding as to how it conforms to our teachings.
I say he does not understand how we see that it fits as a whole.
Not to speak for elsie, but when someone comes along and starts howling "bigot" and "liar", and using the usual nasty ad hominems against us, the response is likely to be similar, regardless of the poster's religious preference.
Tant, you are sounding quite picked on tonight.
++++++++++++
Again, you need to take some time and learn what we really say. Not just what others say we say.
Oh, good grief. There are two adjacent words alike in those two quotes. TWO WORDS! And you’re going to convict on the basis of two words?? It’s utterly desperate.
The rest of your points are equally useless. I’ve not the patience to explain it to you, mostly because I’d have to treat you like a child to whom I’m explaining the obvious, and I don’t come onto FR to debate children.
Come on, MHG, you’re better than this. Stop looking dumb, because you’re not.
~”Tant, you are sounding quite picked on tonight.”~
You know me. I’m here to learn. It doesn’t phase me; I have the truth that you’ve rejected, so I’m good to go.
Even more obfuscation. You make it sound like these Nephite disciples were doing a “no-no” FOR WHICH JESUS DISCOURAGED. He did no such thing! (Would you please re-look at Jesus’ reaction to their praying? Here. I’ll help you out. I’ll emphasize it as much as I can)
++++++++++++++==
Since Colofornian showes any desire to look at the posability he/she is wrong, I will post his\her edited verson of our scriptures next to the full verson. If you desire, you can see what he left out.
“...he..commanded them that they should kneel down...that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth....he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray UNTO Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God...Father...they believe in me...and they pray UNTO ME...he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray UNTO HIM...And it came to pass that JESUS BLESSED THEM AS THEY DID PRAY UNTO HIM; AND HIS COUNTENANCE DID SMILE UPON THEM, AND THE LIGHT OF HIS COUNTENANCE DID SHINE UPON THEM...AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM: PRAY ON; NEVERTHELESS THEY DID NOT CEASE TO PRAY... And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, UNTO HIM; and HE DID SMILE UPON THEM AGAIN; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.” (3 Nephi 19:16-18,22,24-26, 30)
{full version}
(3 Nephi 19:1-36.)
CHAPTER 19
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his wife and his children and did return to his own home.
2 And it was noised abroad among the people immediately, before it was yet dark, that the multitude had seen Jesus, and that he had ministered unto them, and that he would also show himself on the morrow unto the multitude.
3 Yea, and even all the night it was noised abroad concerning Jesus; and insomuch did they send forth unto the people that there were many, yea, an exceedingly great number, did labor exceedingly all that night, that they might be on the morrow in the place where Jesus should show himself unto the multitude.
4 And it came to pass that on the morrow, when the multitude was gathered together, behold, Nephi and his brother whom he had raised from the dead, whose name was Timothy, and also his son, whose name was Jonas, and also Mathoni, and Mathonihah, his brother, and Kumen, and Kumenonhi, and Jeremiah, and Shemnon, and Jonas, and Zedekiah, and Isaiah—now these were the names of the disciples whom Jesus had chosen—and it came to pass that they went forth and stood in the midst of the multitude.
5 And behold, the multitude was so great that they did cause that they should be separated into twelve bodies.
6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus.
7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people.
8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken—behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.
9 And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them.
10 And when they had thus prayed they went down unto the water’s edge, and the multitude followed them.
11 And it came to pass that Nephi went down into the water and was baptized.
12 And he came up out of the water and began to baptize. And he baptized all those whom Jesus had chosen.
13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.
15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.
16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.
17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.
18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.
24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire.
25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.
26 And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.
27 And he turned from them again, and went a little way off and bowed himself to the earth; and he prayed again unto the Father, saying:
28 Father, I thank thee that thou hast purified those whom I have chosen, because of their faith, and I pray for them, and also for them who shall believe on their words, that they may be purified in me, through faith on their words, even as they are purified in me.
29 Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world, because of their faith, that they may be purified in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one, that I may be glorified in them.
30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.
31 And it came to pass that he went again a little way off and prayed unto the Father;
32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.
33 And the multitude did hear and do bear record; and their hearts were open and they did understand in their hearts the words which he prayed.
34 Nevertheless, so great and marvelous were the words which he prayed that they cannot be written, neither can they be uttered by man.
35 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracles, because of their unbelief.
36 Verily I say unto you, there are none of them that have seen so great things as ye have seen; neither have they heard so great things as ye have heard.
=+=+=
Not to speak for elsie, but when someone comes along and starts howling “bigot” and “liar”, and using the usual nasty ad hominems against us, the response is likely to be similar, regardless of the poster’s religious preference.
++++++++++++===
If someone else besides us can see it, may be “bigot” and “liar” are accurate.
I read great, Tant. Thanks for your kind words..!! HA!!!
So, once again...as you've posted above...THE WHOLE MORMON CHURCH IS A CHARITY..but has some FOR-PROFIT entities. Oh, I get it now!! LOL!!
Tell me the PERCENTAGES....as really that's where the rubber meets the road...in a MULTI-BILLION $$$$ operation.
You can spin, spin, spin , and tell me beef ranches don't make money, you can tell me that all those "businesses" are just around "the Temple, in SLC"...but you would be REALLY shading the TRUTH...NOW, wouldn't you Tant?
Once again, so what? The Church controls several industrial entities designed to further its own interests. That’s how we -help- so many millions of people each year, in myriad ways.
First PROVE how those..."millions of people a year"...were helped? Did someone minister to them? Did some volunteers lay some mormon tracts on them? OR DID THE MORMON CHURCH REALLY ADDRESS THEIR NEEDS!?!?!?!
IF they did what you said then I say, Great!!!....open up the books, then. Because ONLY an open and honest accounting would line up with God's WORD. What's STOPPING THEM!?!?!?! Why the SECRECY? Why????
What percentage do YOU think is given to charity....from all LD$ Inc's operations? Riddle me that, ol' wisened one.
Not only are your arguments petty and envious, now you have to rewrite mine to make yours stick. Additionally, you just can’t seem to bring yourself to trust the justice of God. You have to rely on jealousy instead.
Yeah THAT'S it, TANT. ROFLOL!!!! Is that all you got???? Pathetic argument, buddy. You know and I know....all is NOT RIGHT with the LOVE OF MONEY within the LEADERSHIP of the mormon church. And YOU should be questioning it....if you really trusted God, and His Son, Jesus Christ.
I guess facts...don't fit your template, eh TANT? I'm guessing deep down you KNOW SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT...with the FINANCES and the seemingly preoccupation with MONEY...with your church. I would expect that maybe a guy such as yourself to be a little curious....but then again, you've proven to me...you know little about your church's love of money.
Doesn’t speak well to your spiritual foundation, OO.
IMO, for you to ignore...the obvious LOVE OF MONEY within the mormon church....speaks VOLUMES to YOUR spirit-man, TANT.
You are correct....that and just the overall soundtrack. The train scene, the windmill, the fly...etc.
And some of the lines....and their delivery are unforgettable.
Well, that’s really not what I expected this time. I mean, you didn’t even make sense this time. Nice ad hom however. Getting really adept at those, tauntiboo.
Good, I’m getting better at ad hominems, you’re getting worse at substantive discussion. Sounds like a fair trade.
HA!!
As they might say in parts of TX, and OK....That's a load of Bovine Scatology...!!! Just off the TOP of your head counselor...how many zero's in a billion. Don't cheat!!
Let me tell you....NINE ZERO'S or 1000 MILLION $$$$$ in a billion dollars.
Please tell me counselor...how many BILLIONS of $$$$$ does the mormon church need to be prepared WITH!!?!?!?
20? 30? 40? 50? 60?
Do you know?
The Mormon church will not borrow money to build churches. They must be paid for as they go along. The Mormon church also runs the largest private welfare system in the world. Snipe if you want. There’s nothing wrong with the way the Church handles its assets. I’m happy to donate. Since you obviously are not donating, what concern is it of yours?
Okay...let's TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT....( an unknown person, on a web site..) Tell me how much this PRIVATE welfare system pays out yearly? And while you are at it....give me the percentage of the BILLIONS of $$$$$ that the mormon church controls...that goes to this "private welfare system" you speak of.
There's plenty WRONG with how the mormon church handles it's assets. They are super secretive, and will go to great lengths to NOT have light shed on their operations. Why not be ABOVE BOARD? Fully accountable? What do they have to hide? In my mind...and thousands of other's they greatly, for decades now, have APPEARED to be VERY focused on the LOVE OF MONEY....Something the bible...warns about. Can you address these points?
And I'm very surprised that an apparent educated person as yourself....wouldn't want at the very least full disclosure from your own leaders...
I do pray that you see what's plainly in front of you.
FWIW-
++++++++++
Just a thought, think about all the airplane loads of relief supplies that are just sitting around and are sent out the day after a disaster.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.