Ramos, Compean pardons? 'No,' 'No,' says Bush rep

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | December 22, 2007

[Man50D]

The White House apparently is so reluctant to discuss the issue of pardons or commutations for convicted U.S. Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean that a spokesman doesn't even want to allow questions about the issue to be finished.

The circumstances arose during a White House press gaggle with spokesman Tony Fratto, when Les Kinsolving, WND's correspondent at the White House, tried to raise the issue of the disparity in the treatment of the Border Patrol agents, compared to that given Scooter Libby, an aide to Vice President Dick Cheney who was convicted of lying during an investigation into the outing of the identity of a covert U.S. agent.

The agents were convicted and given prison sentences of 11 and 12 years for shooting after a self-confessed drug smuggler fleeing back into Mexico after leaving 750 pounds of marijuana in Texas, while Libby was excused from serving any of his prison sentence through President Bush's intervention.

The White House repeatedly has said there is a pardons request procedure available to the agents, even though Libby apparently did not go through the same process before Bush acted.

"A number of times here, when questions were raised about former U.S. Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean, we were told that there is a process for pardon. And I have a three-part question on this…" Kinsolving began.

"You have to make it quick, because they're calling for me," Fratto said.

"I will. Could you explain to us why the president refuses to commute these men who shot an escaping Mexican drug smuggler…" Kinsolving continued.

"No," interrupted Fratto.

"…as the president commuted the prison sentence of his friend, Scooter Libby," Kinsolving asked.

"No," Fratto responded.

[calcowgirl]

it doesn’t change my contention that ex post facto applies to perps, not victims. It applies to people being prosecuted for crimes prior to a law being enacted, not freeing victims of laws badly written.

Do you have any basis for that contention or are you just makin' it up as you go along? How about some support? So far, the Constitution seems to be working against you when talking about the powers of Congress:

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

[calcowgirl]

You're the idiot that tried to draw parallels to Rwanda. RWANDA!!

These threads get more entertaining every day! ROFL!

[calcowgirl]

The legislation could be made retroactive, several lawyers on these threads have said so.

More B.S.

Feel free to provide links to all of these posts by lawyers if you think I'm wrong, otherwise we'll know you're just makin' it up--Again.

[Dante3]

Outrageous.

Some might wonder if that drug dealer was supplying somebody in or close to the White House.

[Cyropaedia]

>>"Andrew said that the ditch is currently around 20 feet deep."

Andrew says a lot of things, 99% of them are wrong.

Actually, Andrew is usually right and you're the one that winds up being wrong almost 99% of the time on these BP threads. Any objective observer going through these threads reading your arguments would come to the same conclusion.

If Andrew says that the current depth of the ditch is closer to 20 feet than say 12 feet then I believe him. He's proven he knows what he's talking about. Care to make a wager that he's right...?

You, as I recall, even had some trouble differentiating the 16th Amendment (Income Tax) from the 13th (Abolition of Slavery). So I think that your remarks about Andrew are a little rich.

Andrew is going to drain the ditch before taking pictures? Give him this pic, it may help...

According to his observations there won't be need to do that. You can keep that pic for your own personal use. You probably need it.

No need to really, both Ramos and OAD testified the water in the ditch was about knee deep. That was on the day of the shoot, you know, when it mattered.

Again, Andrew was talking about the current depth of the ditch. When was the last time you were actually out there...?

>>"Now you have a lot of audacity in trying label other people nut jobs."

I call 'em as I see 'em. Here's another one...since they're so cute.

Still obsessing about that possible Rwanda scenario that Sutton saved us from...??

Here are a couple pics for you to put your snarky comments in their proper perspective...

p.s. Still waiting for that vast cadre of posts from those esteemed groups of legal scholars here at FR telling us exactly how we can apply new criminal statutes retroactively as to nullify verdicts in criminal trials. You promised, -remember...?

[Bob J]

As I said, a comment indicating such was posted a couple times over the last year by posters who represented themselves as attorneys. Since you’ve got such a nut on about it and also since it seems to be the mountain you’re willing to die on, I’ll check with our resident constitutional attorney, who happens to be a friend of mine.

If I do establish this can be done, will you admit that you’ve had almost two years to get your supporting congresscritters to do such (which would result in the immediate freeing of Ramos and Compean) and that instead you’ve been writing letters and attending/organizing rallies demanding a pardon, inciting stupid ass conspiracy theories about the New World Order, and in general have been using and perpetrating the issue to advance your border security efforts at the expense of Ramos, Compean and their families?

Hmmmm? Care to put reputation where you’re mouth is?

[Bob J]

"Some might wonder if that drug dealer was supplying somebody in or close to the White House."

Do you all have lifetime subscriptions to World Nut Daily?

[Bob J]

Same to you, #206.

[Dante3]

Actually some people have said that. Calm down and don’t go into a frenzy. I never said I did. Your hatred of the BP agents is known. However, I would not be surprised if you are a White House operative posting under a couple of names here or a Johnny Sutton groupie.

[calcowgirl]

will you admit that you’ve had almost two years to get your supporting congresscritters to do such (which would result in the immediate freeing of Ramos and Compean) and that instead you’ve been writing letters and attending/organizing rallies demanding a pardon, inciting stupid ass conspiracy theories about the New World Order, and in general have been using and perpetrating the issue to advance your border security efforts at the expense of Ramos, Compean and their families?

Had I done any of the things you state, I would acknowledge them. However, I haven't.

Regardless, that has nothing to do with you supporting your silly contentions about ex post facto laws. Either you can support it or you can't. We now know that you can't support it with links to all those attorneys you contend were stating it on these threads. Go ahead--consult with your buddy and get back to us.

[Cyropaedia]

Gee, why didn't Sutton allow the BP agents to delay serving their sentences until after the Fifth Circuit made their ruling...? Sutton could have shown a little bit of mercy right there after sending these guys to federal prison and bankrupting their families. At least they could have spent spent the holidays with their families one final time before possibly spending the next decade in prison.

Apparently he had a real big ax to grind and his office argued vigorously against the proposal during the sentencing hearing.

Conceivably they could have even saved the taxpayers some money in the event that the Fifth Circuit overturned the verdicts.

[AndrewC]

I love your "known fact..liars" comment. Juarez and Vasquez were fired from their jobs because they at first tried to hide the shooting and under pressure relented.

IOW they were liars. Vasquez never tried to hide the shooting. He first appeared with a lawyer and made the statement about the meeting with Compean at the gate. He later made up the count of the casings.

Nice perspective /sarc. Without binocular vision, the picture does not portray the actual depth of the ditch. Two eyeballs do. I will measure it Monday, so be prepared for the numbers.

Funny, it's only been 2 years since the shooting, I can't understand why tire tracks in dirt still aren't visable.

They weren't just tire tracks they were gouges.

For once I agree with you. Vasquez said he heard the shots as he was getting out of his car, but it is also quite possible he fudged this a bit because he didn't want to get dragged further into this obviously bad shoot by Compean or he didn't want to admit that Compean shot from the levee.

IOW, even you think he is a liar.

P.S. It is only obvious that you believe Davila and only Davila.

Knowing is a lot different than probable cause or even reasonable suspicion, but I don't expect you to understand the difference. Not only did they not KNOW, they didn't have probable cause.

Oh, so Bob J insists that the border patrol agents had no right to even follow the van.

Funny, Compean testified he fell into the side of the ditch, as did Juarez.

Read the testimony, Compean testified he slipped. Initially so did Juarez. Sutton et al. changed that to read "fell headlong" in order to explain the dust which was seen by many other agents.

Plus, you have a great misunderstanding of argument. I argued that if it were true that Compean fell headlong into the ditch, he would have hit the bottom. He didn't(he was not wet). Therefore any testimony that indicates that Compean fell face down into the ditch is most likely a lie.

Hey buddy, I have done something neither you nor the jury nor the judge has done. I went to the ditch. I drove the route. The day you do so, you might have some credibility. At the moment, you have none.

[AndrewC]

No, I don’t enjoy your favorite food.

[AndrewC]

maybe you should have testified at trial, what with your night vision accuracy and all.

Maybe I should have since Davila sure was off.

2.5 meters = 8.20209974 feet --- Davila's description of the ditch
1.65 meters = 5.41338583 feet --- Davila's testified height



6 Q. Okay. That ditch is about -- how deep would you estimate
7 that ditch is, Mr. Davila?
8 A. Well, the depth of the water, more or less, came up to the
9 level of my knees, maybe a little above, maybe a little below.
10 But how deep the ditch was, I don't know. It's a little taller
11 than -- it's a little higher than I am tall.
12 Q. Okay. Well, you're approximately six feet tall. Is that
13 correct?
14 A. In meters, I am one meter 65 centimeters. In feet, I don't
15 know what that is.
16 Q. Okay. Well, could you estimate in meters, since you were
17 in the ditch, how deep it is?
18 A. No, I don't understand.
19 Q. You don't understand my question?
20 A. No.
21 Q. My question is: Since you were in the ditch, how deep
22 would you approximate that it is, in meters?
23 A. Maybe two and a half meters.
24 Q. Is that approximately 12 feet?
25 A. I don't know. It's approximately two and a half meters.

The platforms in this picture are at 5 and ten meters. Five meters is about 16 feet. Stand on the rail of the 5 meter platform and that is pretty close to the ditch's depth. The highest springboard is 3 meters or almost 10 feet off of the water.

[Types_with_Fist]

Okay. Let’s speculate on the alternative then... he’s accident-prone, clueless and inept?

[Bob J]

From our resident FR Constitutional attorney;

“Ex post facto applies in only one direction. Congress cannot make an act into a crime after the act has been committed. On the other hand, Congress does have the power to “undeclare” an act as a crime. These answers are rock solid as a matter of constitutional law.”

I quote a statement from others and you call bullshiite on it. You don’t know if you’re right, you don’t even check to see if you’re right, you just don’t want it to be so you start flapping your gums and spouting anything that comes into your head.

Which pretty much sums up the way you have been arguing this case for the last year.

So I just proved everything I’ve been saying. For two years you have had at your disposal the simplest, quickest option for getting Ramos and Compean out of jail and you haven’t even checked it out much less considered it.

So my accusation stands. Many supporters of an R&C “pardon” are using this incident to further their own pet issues (whether it be border security, the illuminati or something else) and the longer they stay in jail the longer you can milk it.

Despicable.

[Bob J]

” However, I would not be surprised if you are a White House operative posting under a couple of names here or a Johnny Sutton groupie.”

You’re even too lazy to check my bio.

[Bob J]

I post an actual picture of the ditch at the exact spot the incident occurred, and you respond with a picture of ...a diving platform.

[AmericanInTokyo]

The Corruption of President George W. Bush will all come out in due time.

Give it five years after he leaves Washington.

It will come out through FOIA requests, or one of his closest advisors will see dollar bills, and go for that book deal and in the process selling his loyalty to W so the rest of us, the unwashed masses in flyover country, will know exactly what transpired secretly with respect to the undue influence of Mexico on our border policy during his two terms.

It will not be pleasant.

A lot of folks are going to be surprised.

[sauropod]

When I think of this issue, I hate Jorge Bush.

ditto