Posted on 12/17/2007 5:53:43 AM PST by Blue Turtle
MASON CITY, Iowa — Democrat Barack Obama on Sunday confronted one of the persistent falsehoods circulating about him on the Internet.
He went to church.
His attendance here at the First Congregational United Church of Christ, with the news media in tow, was as much an observation of faith as it was a rejoinder to baseless e-mailed rumors that he is a Muslim and poses a threat to the security of the United States.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
The first seven of those principles in Obama’s church make a lot of sense to me and really echo what Cosby is saying.
What is truly ridiculous,however,is that”disavowal of middleclassness”.What a joke.Nearly everyone IN that church is middle class or above!
Reminds me of rich white hippie kids”rejecting bourgeois morality”while living off the trust fund of daddy.
“So in Muslim eyes, he is either a Muslim or an evil convert to a false religion, who should be killed.”
So it would be with the interpretation of Islam held by many (most?) Muslims.
“I’m curious about that. When a prominent Muslim renounces his faith, someone always puts a Fatwa out on him and good Muslims try to kill him. How come Obama is not subject to this kind of attack by Muslim fanatics?”
I suspect it may be because he became a Christian (at least nominally) long before he was a prominent person, and he lives in a place where folks don't pronounce fatwas on ordinary folks.
“... but he never admits that he was ever a Muslim or that he has repudiated Islam.”
It seems he would like to elide past that part of his life.
sitetest
Please read the "Black Value System" again -- only this time, substitute the word "White" for "Black."
And substitute the word 'Europe' for 'African' in their spiels...
Such a 'church', or an organization that claimed to be a 'church' whould be rightfully shunned and ridiculed if the references were swapped (white for black, and Europe for Africa).
This is an insult to the Body of Christ which is made up of anyone regardless of skin melanin, nationality, language - or whatever. Just united in their belief in Jesus Christ as our only Lord and Saviour.
“Maybe he doesn’t think he was. Children follow the directions of their parents. They don’t decide to attend church or religious schools because of their faith, but because of the faith of their parents. If my parents sent me to a Baptist church and school, I would learn about the Baptist faith, but I wouldn’t truly be Baptist until I myself had accepted Jesus as my Savior.”
Islam is less like Baptists in this regard and more like Catholicism. In Catholicism, if you're baptized, even as a small child, you're a Catholic. If an individual later follows another religion, it would still be said that the individual was once a Catholic. Those born into Muslim families are Muslim. Should a young Muslim follow another religion in adulthood, it would properly be said of him that he was a Muslim in his youth.
“Maybe he doesn’t think he was.”
If that’s the case, then he’s being intellectually dishonest about where he comes from.
“There are just SO MANY things to dislike about his policies and beliefs, that I think it sounds very petty to keep making fun of his name and accusing him of being a ‘secret Muslim’.”
I’m not saying that he’s a “secret Muslim.” I’m saying he was once a Muslim, and it’s troubling that he evades that part of his life.
sitetest
Two words for you:
Al Taqqiya, or...the Koranic permission given to Muslims to LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETH as long as it advances the cause of Islam.
Case closed. Elect him at your own peril, America.
You may be right, but I don’t know much about Islam.
I am Catholic, so I do know about the Catholic faith. Baptism is a sacrament, and confers sacramental grace. A child is welcomed into the Catholic Church through baptism. First Reconciliation and First Communion are received around 7 to 8 years of age, and are sacraments as well. Confirmation comes between 11-17 years old. Through confirmation, a student becomes a full Catholic, and becomes responsible for his/her own religious choices.
I don’t know much about Islam, so I don’t know if there is any similar ritual that labels a child as a Muslim. If, as you say, any child of a Muslim father is a Muslim, then wouldn’t it be more accurately described as a race rather than a religion? Like I said, I don’t really know, I am just trying to understand why this is so important to some.
My understanding is that Obama’s real father was a non-practicing Muslim. Obama did not live with him. He lived with a Muslim step-father, and a Christian Mother. He attended a Catholic private school, and a Muslim public school. I don’t see how you can say for certain what religion he was as a child. Does it really matter that much what religions a child is taught? A little confusion on his part seems quite reasonable.
Can’t we just concentrate on the many bad policies and ideas he has presented in this campaign?
I’m Catholic, as well. I know a bit about Islam, and to me, in this regard, it seems to me more analogous to Catholicism, in that one can become a Catholic without any voluntary action on one’s own part.
The way one becomes Muslim without any voluntary action of one’s own is to be born. Without getting overly theological, according to Islamic belief, everyone is born Muslim.
The children of non-Muslims are brought up in other religions, and thus are converted from Islam while yet children. Don’t ask me why everyone in the world isn’t under a fatwa for “apostasy,” then. I don’t know why. I just know that this conversion away from Islam in childhood isn’t considered similar to adult apostasy.
In any event, for children brought up in Muslim families, obviously, these children aren’t converted away from Islam, and thus, retain their status as Muslims.
In this way, Mr. Obama was a Muslim as a child.
“If, as you say, any child of a Muslim father is a Muslim, then wouldn’t it be more accurately described as a race rather than a religion?”
According to Islamic teaching, yeah, a Muslim is a part of a race - the human race.
“He attended a Catholic private school, and a Muslim public school. I don’t see how you can say for certain what religion he was as a child.”
I can’t say for certain. You’ll notice that my original posts in this thread note uncertainty. However, the evidence suggests that he was raised nominally as a Muslim. The evidence shows that he was born Muslim, that the father that he knew was Muslim. The evidence further shows that attended a school where children were taught their religion.
The evidence strongly suggests that he was registered in this school as a Muslim, and received Islam religious education.
“Does it really matter that much what religions a child is taught?”
Without answering that question, I’d say what DOES matter is that presidential candidates tell us the truth when they tell us about how they were raised, including in which religion they were raised.
Knowing where someone comes from can be important in discerning who and what he is now. As well, it says something about the individual who is dishonest about where he comes from.
“A little confusion on his part seems quite reasonable.”
If he’s really confused, he’s too stupid to be president.
If he’s not confused, then he’s too deceptive to be president.
“Can’t we just concentrate on the many bad policies and ideas he has presented in this campaign?”
I’m not suggesting that we should ignore them.
But the fact that he’s dishonest about his childhood is relevant to the discussion, as well.
sitetest
Exactly. And why I have no doubt that mohammad was the prophet of the devil and that Islam is the devil's cult on earth. The devil can take any form he wishes to advance his will.
Hmm. They wouldn’t treat a traitor to Islam like that unless he was quietly reassuring them that he was still secretly a Muslim. Which may or may not be the case. But this is obviously a lot more complicated than the press is pretending it is.
VERY interesting, indeed. I think this needs to be more widely known. I wouldn’t know who to approach about this, but it needs to be known and talked about and maybe investigated.
See Beckwith’s post, #68.
If an American with an unusual background abandons his Muslim youth, he can normally get away with it because nobody notices. Who cares? And the Muslims in the neighborhood don’t know about it and probably don’t know him.
But if it becomes public knowledge that somebody prominent was Muslim and now isn’t, that would normally be enough to trigger a Fatwah somewhere. Salman Rushdie, for instance, still needs protection, because plenty of Muslims would like to kill him.
So, it’s a bit curious that Muslims are not outraged by Obama’s apostasy. In fact, they like him, and he likes them. It’s easy enough for your average multi-culti American Christian, maybe, to get on with Muslims, but not for a prominent ex-Muslim Christian. Normally he’d be the last person to open ecumenical relations with Muslims, because they hate what he represents, someone who has broken the most basic law of Islam and insulted Allah.
“Salman Rushdie, for instance, still needs protection,...”
...because he blasphemed against the Muslim prophet.
“So, it’s a bit curious that Muslims are not outraged by Obama’s apostasy.”
Mr. Obama hasn’t been very forthcoming about the fact that as a child, he was a Muslim. Although it’s generally known that he comes from a Muslim background, he’s been careful to obfuscate the fact that he, himself, was a Muslim.
As well, not all Muslims are hell-bent for leather to condemn as apostates those who leave Islam. In fact, foreign-born Muslims living in the United States are probably less likely to think that way than Muslims in the rest of the world.
Having employed Muslims, I know that many came here to ESCAPE radical, fundamentalist Islam, some at great personal cost. I remember one employee in particular. He’d been a tenured college professor in his home country. When he came to the United States, the only job he could get was selling electronics at a Luskins (local electronics store). Eventually, his material lot here improved substantially. But he gave up quite a bit to come here. Why did he come? Because he was in physical fear of his life, and the lives of his wife and children, for his failure to adhere to fundamentalist Islamic beliefs and practices.
He wasn’t the only Muslim who worked for me who told similar stories.
Like most immigrants to the United States, most Muslim immigrants here in the US aspire to the American Dream.
Thus, I kinda doubt that anyone here in the US is going to put a fatwa out on Mr. Obama because somewhere between the age of eight or nine, and the age of, say, 25, he became a Christian.
sitetest
Was it a store-front church with a liquor store next door?
It now occupies, IN GREATLY EXPANDED FORM, its own page, that is unlinked (at least I couldn’t find a link).
“He went to a Muslim school but it doesn’t mean he became a Muslim...”
Sure, because Muslims are so tolerant that they would allow a Christian kid to attend one of their schools. Sure, believe what you want.
“Can’t we just concentrate on the many bad policies and ideas he has presented in this campaign?”
And ignore your ignorance?
Ignorance...that’s another word liberals use when they don’t agree with your views.
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