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Bruce's History Lessons: The oh so controversial second amendment
Tribune-Star ^ | December 11, 2007 | Bruce Kauffmann

Posted on 12/12/2007 2:03:04 PM PST by neverdem

When the Bill of Rights was ratified this week (Dec. 15) in 1791, the Founders never dreamed that centuries later the Second Amendment would become so controversial. To them, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,” was fairly straightforward language.

How wrong they were, as evidenced by the Supreme Court’s recent decision to rule on whether Washington, D.C.’s strict firearms law violates the Constitution, “a decision,” The Washington Post wrote, “that will raise the politically and culturally divisive issue of gun control just in time for the 2008 elections.”

The main controversy is over the phrase “A well regulated militia,” and its relationship to the statement “the people’s right to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Gun-control advocates believe this language means that if you don’t belong to a “regulated militia” your right to own a gun can be “infringed.”

Gun-rights advocates counter by noting that the amendment does not grant a right; it recognizes a right already granted. The amendment does not say, “The people have the right to keep and bear arms.”

It says, “the (already established) right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” And they have a point. As even the Supreme Court has acknowledged, the right to own firearms precedes the Bill of Rights.

Gun advocates also note that because the amendment gives the right to bear arms to the “people,” not the states, claiming that this right is dependent on anything the states do or don’t do — including forming militias — is ludicrous. After all, the Bill of Rights mentions no specific rights that the states possess, but several the people do.

Two additional points: In 1791, most state militias did not give guns to militiamen when militias were formed. Militiamen brought their guns with them — from home. Indeed, the amendment says they can “keep” their firearms, not merely “bear” them during military service.

Finally, (my hero) James Madison’s original Second Amendment language was as follows: “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country.” Written that way, he is saying that if the people don’t have the right to arms, there can’t be a militia. That Congress reversed the order does not change Madison’s intent.

Granted, all constitutional rights, including free speech and gun ownership, are subject to reasonable restrictions — you can’t yell “Fire” in a crowded theater, and felons can’t possess firearms. But the general right to own firearms is constitutionally protected. We will see what the Supreme Court thinks.

Bruce Kauffmann’s e-mail address is bruce@history lessons.net


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; heller; parker; scotus
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To: logic
"This argument has always ticked me off to an unbearable level.

I agree, it raises my hackles also! The “fire in a crowded theater” argument seems to always be thrown out without explaining why you should not shout FIRE ! in a crowded theater unless of course there really is a fire. In the latter case, it would be your duty to sound the alarm.

Semper Fi
An Old Man

21 posted on 12/12/2007 5:02:09 PM PST by An Old Man (Socialism is a tool designed to "socialize" (i.e., confiscate, not create) wealth)
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To: robertpaulsen
"Gosh. I'm confused. Are you sure having a gun is an inalienable right?

You ought to be confused. Even Hillery Clinton has the right to keep and bear arms.

"Even if the person is an illegal in this country, we protect his inalienable right to life."

We are the guys in the white hats! Up until we send them packing, they can depend upon us for three squares and a cot in the federal pen.

Semper Fi
An Old Man

22 posted on 12/12/2007 5:18:53 PM PST by An Old Man (Socialism is a tool designed to "socialize" (i.e., confiscate, not create) wealth)
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To: An Old Man
"You ought to be confused. Even Hillery Clinton has the right to keep and bear arms."

An inalienable right to keep and bear arms? That's the question.

And if it's a God-given inalienable right, like life or liberty, why isn't it given to 3-year-olds and foreign visitors and the insane? What, God doesn't like them?

23 posted on 12/12/2007 5:29:01 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Do you persist in these word games because you hate God or because we have the right to keep and bear arms?

Semper Fi
An Old Man

24 posted on 12/12/2007 5:41:57 PM PST by An Old Man (Socialism is a tool designed to "socialize" (i.e., confiscate, not create) wealth)
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To: robertpaulsen
Yeah. But I don't believe Davy Crockett was three when he killed his.

Neither does the kid's grandfather, the one is also a direct descendant of D.C.

25 posted on 12/12/2007 6:42:17 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: longtermmemmory

i am so tired of the ‘fire in the crowded theatre’ bit...

free speech allows that... intelligent people, those that reason, will see there is no smoke, or flames and know the ‘yeller’ is an idiot...

then the yeller should suffer the consequences of his actions...

regulations are coming, the proliferation of shootings to get famous will see to that.

teeman


26 posted on 12/12/2007 7:37:32 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
Taking Sides on Title VI - Middle East Studies reform goes partisan.

Poll shows rifts among minority groups, but hope for future

The Pope condemns the climate-change scaremongers

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

27 posted on 12/12/2007 10:10:22 PM PST by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: El Gato
Well this thread cleared some things up for me.
And if you have to ask then you've only got my sympathies and nothing else.
See ya 'round.
28 posted on 12/13/2007 3:21:42 AM PST by philman_36
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ...
I am continuing to compile a list of FreeRepublic folks who are interested in RKBA topics. FReepmail me if you want to be added.

Conversely, if you want off my ping-list, let me know.

And my apologies for any redundant pings.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

If you're looking for the standard FR "bang list", please click HERE.

29 posted on 12/13/2007 4:58:51 AM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: neverdem
PREDICTION: The Supremes will rule the law in DC is unconstitutional and the citizens have the "right to keep and bear arms", but this does not mean that reasonable restrictions to ensure the felon or mentally-ill cannot purchase any firearm cannot be used.(Protection for the BATFE)

It will be one of those narrow-focused rulings we get from the Supremes.

30 posted on 12/13/2007 5:05:55 AM PST by Pistolshot (Never argue with stupid people, they just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience)
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To: Pistolshot
to ensure the felon or mentally-ill cannot purchase any firearm can be used
31 posted on 12/13/2007 5:07:00 AM PST by Pistolshot (Never argue with stupid people, they just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience)
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To: neverdem

At the time, “regulate” was understood to mean “cause to function well” as in: members had appropriate equipment, knew how to use it efficiently, and were trained to work with others well. Used that way today, you would be expected to buy your own M16 & ammo, practice with it, and periodically train with your local squad. This in no way infringes on your right to own what you want and use it responsibly.

Somehow the term “regulate” has been twisted into the modern meaning “suppress, interfere and harrass insofar as outright prohibition cannot be achieved” - not what the Founding Fathers had in mind.


32 posted on 12/13/2007 5:08:44 AM PST by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: An Old Man
"Do you persist in these word games"

Word games? The U.S. Constitution and the U.S. Supreme Court treat rights differently depending on whether they are inalienable, fundamental, or natural.

An inalienable right (like life, liberty or property) can only be taken by individual due process (ie., a court of law). It cannot be taken by a majority vote in the legislature.

Words mean things. You're throwing them around like confetti.

33 posted on 12/13/2007 5:15:55 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Pistolshot
"PREDICTION: The Supremes will rule the law in DC is unconstitutional and the citizens have the "right to keep and bear arms", but this does not mean that reasonable restrictions to ensure the felon or mentally-ill cannot purchase any firearm cannot be used.(Protection for the BATFE)"

How is that different than what the DC Circuit ruled? In other words, how is this ruling different than if the U.S.Supreme Court declined to hear the case and let stand the DC Circuit decision?

34 posted on 12/13/2007 5:20:09 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: logic

people for some reason don’t understand that there are already laws in place regarding firearm equivalent to yelling “fire” in a theatre.
there are already laws against assault, murder, menacing..


35 posted on 12/13/2007 5:30:27 AM PST by absolootezer0 (white male christian hetero married gun toting SUV driving motorcycle riding conservative smoker)
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To: Cicero
In other words, the right of self-defense is another “inalienable” right, like the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Absolutely correct! In fact, to amplify your thought, if the right to life is inalienable, then the right to defend (or keep) that same life must also be inalienable!!

36 posted on 12/13/2007 5:30:56 AM PST by logic (Support Duncan Hunter for the 2008 GOP presidential nominee. He is THE conservative candidate!!)
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To: ctdonath2
"Somehow the term “regulate” has been twisted into the modern meaning “suppress, interfere and harrass insofar as outright prohibition cannot be achieved” - not what the Founding Fathers had in mind."

Gosh. And somehow the phrase "to keep and bear arms" has been twisted into the modern meaning of "keep with" and "carry" instead of "maintain and take into battle". But that's OK I guess. Living constitution and all that.

Even if the term "regulate" was abused the way you say (which it's not), the term still only applies to the Militia ("A well regulated Militia") not to the the right of the people.

37 posted on 12/13/2007 5:32:58 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
.....Gosh. I'm confused. Are you sure having a gun is an inalienable right?

YES!!!!

38 posted on 12/13/2007 5:37:12 AM PST by logic (Support Duncan Hunter for the 2008 GOP presidential nominee. He is THE conservative candidate!!)
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To: robertpaulsen
How is that different than what the DC Circuit ruled? In other words, how is this ruling different than if the U.S.Supreme Court declined to hear the case and let stand the DC Circuit decision?

The difference is it will then be precedent in the entire country, instead of just in that federal district.....

39 posted on 12/13/2007 5:46:52 AM PST by logic (Support Duncan Hunter for the 2008 GOP presidential nominee. He is THE conservative candidate!!)
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To: absolootezer0
people for some reason don’t understand that there are already laws in place regarding firearm equivalent to yelling “fire” in a theatre.

there are already laws against assault, murder, menacing..

EXACTLY!!! Those are the laws we need enforced, not the existing gun control laws, The existing gun control laws need to be struck down as unconstitutional!!!!

40 posted on 12/13/2007 5:49:54 AM PST by logic (Support Duncan Hunter for the 2008 GOP presidential nominee. He is THE conservative candidate!!)
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