Posted on 11/25/2007 6:19:11 AM PST by fallingwater
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695230114,00.html
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ.
If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954
"Christian values..." You mean like men becoming gods? You mean like the belief that thousands of mortals can simultaneously be "true" gods? (Polytheism)
[Maybe you need to dust the cobwebs off of your Bible this Christmas season]
"...consistent...repository.
Consistency...consistency...Hmm...Oh, I think you mean like:
Example 1: The Book of Mormon was anti-polygamy; but then its original prophet WAS a polygamist (along with many to follow); but then the LDS church cracked down on polygamy; but then polygamy is still supposedly being practiced forever in the celestial kingdom (IOW, "right now"--as much as "eternity" can be "now").
Example 2: LDS leaders said black skin was a "curse" and prevented blacks from the priesthood. Then they changed their mind in 1978.
Example 3: LDS were largely anti-slavery in history. But then you get curious pro-slave owner "Scriptural" passages like Doctrine & Covenants 134:12.
Example 4: Except for the doctrine of grace and some others, just about all of the major distinctions between LDS & the historic Christian faith don't even come from the Book of Mormon. What that means is that LDS theology itself "evolved" (one God in BoM; multiple gods later...no priesthood in BoM; priesthood later; no created God in BoM; LDS god a created God later; no 3 degrees of heaven in BoM; 3 degrees later; no baptism for dead or geneology works or temple works in BoM; all of that later...I could on and on)
Example 5: LDS position on abortion. If you read the LDS position on abortion (particularly the one I've seen written for LDS bishops), it initially comes across as "pro-life." But as you read it carefully, you realize that the holes in this cheese makes you ask, "Where's the cheese?" I mean there's an exception for rape. An exception for generic "health." (And guess who gets to define "health"?--that's right, the abortionist). An exception for if you pray to God about it and then you make God an accessory to murder by saying, "He answered 'Yes'." An exception for life of the mother...
"...through...repository..." Well, they're "thorough" in some ways, alright. In a world that already features ancestor worship & ancestor veneration, I don't think you can feature a religion that focuses more on the dead than the living than the LDS church...(and they do it so thoroughly). Death records. Genealogies. Temple rituals. All for the dead.
Jesus was critical of those who overly focused on the dead: "He said to another man, 'Follow me.' But the man replied, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.' Jesus said to him, 'Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.'" (Luke 9:59-60)
The apostle Paul even more pointedly told Timothy: ...so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies... (1 Timothy 1:3-4)
When the stupidity and lies come fast and furious, rather than answer them one by one, it is probably better to let that body of post stand alone as a witness to the spirit that motivates these people.
What, may I ask is your definition of “Christian values?”
Would humility and lack of pride be one of the main Christian values? I’m asking because the LDS belief that one can actually “earn” their exaltation instead of relying upon the atonement of Christ, leads to a warping of the humble, contrite attitude of a true Christian, and leads to examples of pride and excessive self-worth. We tend to see this character in Mitt Romney, future God, for example.
I know it is quite difficult to hear the words of your own prophet Brigham Young thrown in your face, but it is what it is:
“I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....”
“This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it....if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.”
**********
As I pointed out, “Wife No. 19” by Ann Eliza Young goes into all the horrible details of what Brigham Young did to apostates and Gentiles, you should read the history from someone who was there.
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/19thwife/19thwifedownload.htm
Of course I realize you and many of your brethren believe all Gentiles and apostates are liars, and this is what makes a Romney presidency a big problem. It matters not how many firsthand accounts I post, it is always the Gentiles fault.
... for the LDS church to be what it claims to be...
01). Joseph Smith would have to have been consistant in his so called knowledge of the make up of God do to his claim of seeing god at age 14. But the record shows that he was inconsistant as to the physical make up of God through out most of his life. So much for leaving the grove with any knowlwdge of God.
02). that by placing a stone JS found in the bottom of a well he was digging in his hat and by putting his face in the hat with the stone he discovered that he could find bury treasure and also translate golden plates that were given to him by an angel named Nephi ah no wait, I think it was Moroni. Joseph then translated these golden plates using his peep stone while the plates were somewhere in the woods. But for reasons too complicated for me, the general body of the church can’t know that Joseph used his peep stone...so he started to call his peep stone the Urium and Thumum. His translation was so perfect that it only required a couple of thousand corrections after God had given Joseph Smith a word for word dictation on special parchment that would appear in his magical hat. So I’d have to believe all of this...from God’s mouth to Joseph’s ear via the peep stone so that the world could have a new testament of Christ....the most perfect book on earth.
03). That this wonder book, which when published would be known as “The Book of Mormon”. It was about an ancient Iron Age American civilization descended from Hebrew blood, consisted of hundreds of thousands of people populating, depending on whom you speak with, either the entire American continents...both North and South ...or a stretch of land consisting of only a few hundred miles. That these Hebrew Americans, built a vast network of roads and cities, huge earthen walls and cement buildings. Had horses, chariots, steal, barley, grapes, figs, elephants, pigs, sheep, a written language, spoke Hebrew, yet wrote their language in Reformed Egyptian, Oh and then left not a single piece of evidence that they ever existed anywhere on the face of the earth...not even leaving a DNA trace among their descendants, today’s American Indians. Oops...not the American Indians any more...Honestly I don’t think anyone knows who Lehi’s descendants are...but I need to believe that they still exist somewhere.
04). That once the prophet has spoken all thinking has been done...because these mouthpieces of God on earth today will not lead the members of the church astray. That every time a truth is spoken by a prophet it is the will and mind of God, unless some later Prophet comes along and doesn’t like something one of the earlier prophets taught, such as blood atonement, then of course we know that that earlier prophet was only speaking as a man and not as a prophet when he said or taught those things and that that entire generation that lived by these false teachings where not really lead astray because all the thinking had already been done by that earlier prophet.
05). That Polygamy is God’s eternal plan for man and woman. That it would never be taken off the face of the earth unless the church was faced with financial ruin due to pressure by the U.S. Government then it could be removed but we could still secretly practice it and lie about it because it is ok to lie for God. And that if it is ever legalized by the Supreme Court we then won’t practice it cuz it kinda takes the fun out of it if it is legal. So for now we still need to believe in it because we will practice it again after we die. It is an eternal plan and is not to be taken off the earth EVER except when faced with financial ruin.
06. That the Book of Abraham was an inspired revelation despite Joseph’s claims that it was a translation.
07. That William Clayton was lying when he wrote that Joseph had started his translation to the Kinderhook Plates and that they were a history of the descendants of Ham...but that he was telling the truth when he penned other foundational stories of the restoration namely the official first vision story.
08. That Joseph Smith Sr’s dream of tree of life in the BoM
was a gift from God to prepare him for the BoM. Not that Joseph Jr incorporated family stories into his BoM. Yeah God sent the same dream to Lehi, Nephi and oh yeah JS Sr...
09. That Zelph really was a white Lamanite who was known from the Atlantic to the Rockie Mountains...despite having lived in an 100 square mile area some where in central America, based on the LGT, then had his body miraculously transported to Illinois.
10. That the capital of the Comoros Islands was named after the Angel Moroni and not the other way around.
11. That it is OK to Lie for the Lord (faithful history)
12. That Joseph’s Treasure Digging activities fall within the indiscretions of youth category
13. That using “Second Sight” is a valid standard to base a witness on.
14. That Blood Atonement is needed because the Blood of Christ wasn’t sufficient.
15. That it was ok for Adam to be the God of all Mormon’s from the 1850 through Brigham’s death...but then be relegated back to just our First Father after Brigham died.
16. That the BoM peoples lived in an “Iron Age Island” surrounded by Asian Immigrants living in the “Stone Age” without any cross contamination of ideas from these two societies yet believe that some how these same original Asian immigrants (Native Americans) are Lehi’s decentants.
17. That Joseph’s just not being able to consistently tell the First Vision Story is some how ok.
18. That despite having SEEN God the Father and His Son in 1820, JS Still didn’t know that God had a physical body of flesh and bone some 13 years later when teaching his Lecture on Faith in Kirkland.
19. That it is some how OK in the eyes of God for Joseph to marry another mans wife to whom that man is STILL married to.
20. That the writers of the Bible plagiarized their personal stories from the Book of Mormon
21. That God is a Racist.
22. That it is some how ok to continue to lie to the members of the church regarding faithful history in church lessons.
23. That a religious revival took place in 1820 in Palmyra despite no evidence.
24. That I should live the WoW despite the fact that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young NEVER did during their lifetimes
25. That Joseph is still a prophet despite teaching that Men lived on the Moon (dressed like Quakers) and that the church would some day teach the gospel there.
26. That is it ok for the church to freely discusses revelations that Joseph Smith made that came to pass...but never discusses the ones that never came to pass.
27. It is ok to dismiss the claims of the BoM regarding Pre Columbian Horses and Elephants as a test of faith.
28. That DNA is Not a reliable way to trace generational lines.
29. That the people of the Book of Mormon where able to sustain such impossible population growth trends.
30. That pre-Columbian Americas had wheeled vehicles as the BoM claims despite lack of evidence
31 That the Mormon Temple ceremony was not totally ripped off from Masonry.
32. That Joseph’s using of the same occult practice of Glass Looking (Head in a hat) was the manner God planned for the translation of the BoM, but that it is too sacred to share this miracle of God with the general body of the church..
33. That it is somehow ok for the Endowment to be changed for any reason, especially for public relations purposes.
34. That the Garment can be changed to accommodate changes in dress standards in 1910 but not 2005.
35. That it is somehow ok to pin the total responsibility of the Mountain Meadows Massacre on one man.
36. That Joseph couldn’t have re translated the Lost 116 pages
37. That God took a vacation and decided NOT to inform His Appointed spokespersons that Mark Hoffman’s Salamander Letters were frauds
38. That when the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done
39. That to fully understand the true nature of a person you should ONLY read the faith promoting histories of those that personally knew the person...because you can only truly know a person from his best friends, not his enemies.
40. That feelings are a legitimate way to recognize truth.
41. That the truth is in fact a lie. That as members, we must forsake actual, verifiable facts, for completely unverifiable mythological yarns. That the truth teller is the apostate; the liar is the righteous. That facts don’t matter. If fact contradicts a blatantly false assertion, the fact is wrong - even more, it is evil. It will kill you spiritually. (Thanks Tal for this one)
42. That God doesn’t get it right the first time around and He needs His prophet to posthumous add to previous revelations...that it is sometimes necessary to add whole sentences or paragraphs to previous revelations without any footnote or declaration.
43. That God didn’t get it right the first time He named His church and it required several times before He got it right i.e.: Church of Christ (1830 to 1834) changed to Church of Latter Day Saints (1834 to 1838) changed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (1838 to Present)...Why would an unchangeable God keep changing His mind?
44. That Church dogma can be changed when verifiable facts so demand it as long as the foundational beliefs somehow remain intact i.e., Church apologist changing Mormon BoM belief’s regarding Lehi coming to an uninhabited continent vs. one already populated with an earlier immigration from Asia.
45. That the ancient church become apostate because it began teaching false doctrines but the modern church did not when it followed Brigham Young ‘s apostate views.
“... convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, pp. 15-16
broncobilly - I pray for you. I pray that you will see the futility of “earning” your way to God through masonic Temple ordinances. I pray that you can break free of the cycle of paying 10% of your income, abstaining from food substances like coffee and tea, attending meetings etc, in order that you will be “worthy” to partake in the saving ordinances based upon Masonic rites, and passed on to the gullible.
Wake up billy, salvation is as close as a prayer. A prayer of humility - of understanding that you sin every single day of your life - and that no matter HOW good you are, or how well you perform, you will NEVER be acceptable to God unless and until you accept the sacrifice of the Savior and come to Him.....alone.
It is available to any who wish to quit relying of the crutch of activity, symbols and ceremonies. Just become one with Christ. It is THAT simple. Once you do that, the truth comes naturally - there is no need to hide any longer.
He didn’t say hijack a website designed for other purposes to carry out your deed.
Joseph Fielding Smith (Prophet and President of the LDS Church) stated:
[T]he founders of Utah incorporated in the laws of the Territory provisions for the capital punishment of those who wil[l]fully shed the blood of their fellow men. This law, which is now the law of the State, granted unto the condemned murderer the privilege of choosing for himself whether he die by hanging, or whether he be shot, and thus have his blood shed in harmony with the law of God; and thus atone, so far as it is in his power to atone, for the death of his victim. Almost without exception the condemned party chooses the latter death. This is by authority of the law of the land, not that of the Church.
I pray for you too. I pray that you will see through the ignorance displayed in your posts. Also that you will cease to think the end justifies the means.
MIND-READING ALERT!
Hahahahaha...
Jim Rob designed the religion section for exactly this purpose ... to discuss religion. You are hilarious billy!
Isn’t that right moderator?
You take the time to accuse me of ignorance yet fail to actually have the guts to point our where the ignorant statement is.
That is simply name-calling and not addressing any issue.
BTW I am not “ignorant” of Mormonism, and likely have spent more years than you within its confines.
I know this may be hard for you to understand. But the word “atone” is a general word and could be replaced by the word “pay.” This is a quote about capital punishment, nothing more. So what is your point?
Deliver me from this stupidity!
Joseph Smith=Elmer Gantry?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Gantry_%28film%29
Be vewy vewy quiet: I’m hunting Mowmans . . .
(Oops, wrong Elmer!)
We are not in the religion section, unless it has been shifted there without my knowledge. I rarely visit the religion section.
Here’s another account of Blood Atonement which you seem unwilling to admit. It comes from the book “Tell It All”
by Mrs. TBH Stenhouse 1875 (with forward by Harriet Beecher Stowe)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/6373/fstenhouseindex.html
*********************************
Heber C. Kimball, the “model Saint,” after a speech to the same effect, in which, as usual, he made use of the most disgusting language, added:
“Joseph Smith was God to the inhabitants of the earth when he was among us, and Brigham is God now!”
But more shocking than any other was the language of Brigham Young himself. On the 2Ist of September, I856, in a discourse delivered in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, and afterwards re-printed by authority in the Journals of Discourses, Vol. IV., pp. 53-4, he said:
“The time is coming when justice will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet; when we shall take the old broadsword, and ask, `Are you for God?’ and if you are not heartily on the Lord’s side, you will be hewn down! “
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
“There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world or in that which is to come; and if they had their eyes opened to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to Heaven as an offering for their sins, and the smoking incense would atone for their sins; whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain with them in the spirit world.
“I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them . . . .
“I do know that there are sins committed of such a nature that, if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And, furthermore, I know that there are transgressors who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the low might have its course. I will say, further, I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man.”
One would have supposed that even Brigham had now reached the culminating point of horror and blasphemy. But no; - a month or so later he even surpassed himself when in a Tabernacle sermon he said:
“When will we love our neighbors as ourselves? In the first place, Jesus said that no man hateth his own flesh. It is admitted by all that every person loves himself. Now if we do rightly love ourselves we want to be saved, and continue to exist, we want to go into the kingdom where we can enjoy eternity, and see no more sorrow nor death. This is the desire of every person who believes in God. Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father, and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauties and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things Of the world, and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of is blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the gods, is there a man or a woman in this house but would say, `Shed my blood that I might be saved and exalted with the gods?’
“All mankind love themselves: and let those principles but be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. This would be loving ourselves even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise when they have a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness, never. He never meant any such thing; His language is left as it is for those to read who have the spirit to discern between truth and error; it was so left for those who can discern the things of God. Jesus Christ never meant that we should love a wicked man in his wickedness.
“I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother, Jesus Christ, raises them up and conquers death, hell, and the grave.
“I have known a great many men who have left this Church, for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled it would have been better for them.
“The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force. This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; if he wants salvation, and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.
“Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, should not be satisfied or rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind . . . . Light and darkness cannot dwell together, and so it is with the kingdom of God.
“Now, brethren and sisters, will you live your religion? How many hundreds of times have I asked that question? Will the Latter-Day Saints live their religion?”
And so, according to Brigham Young, their Prophet, this was the religion of the Saints! And the people acted up to the “religion” thus taught: and the story is so terrible that one dare not even whisper all its details.
It is no secret that all this was understood literally. The wife of one Elder, when he was absent on a mission, acted unfaithfully towards him. Her husband took counsel of the authorities, and was reminded that the shedding of her blood alone could save her. He returned and told her, but she asked for time, which was readily granted. One day, in a moment of affection, when she was seated on his knee, he reminded her of her doom, and suggested that now when their hearts were full of love was a suitable time for carrying it into execution. She acquiesced, and out of love he cut her throat from ear to ear.
In many instances the outrages committed against persons who were known to be innocent were so revolting that no woman - nay, even no right-minded man - would venture to more than just allude to them. A few however, and only a few, and they by no means the worst, of the milder cases, I will just mention.
There was the murder of the Aikin party - six persons - who were killed on their way to California. The same year a man named Yates was killed under atrocious circumstances; and Franklin McNeil who had sued Brigham for false imprisonment and who was killed at his hotel door. There was Sergeant Pike, and there was Arnold and Drown. There was Price and William Bryan at Fairfield; there was Almon Babbitt, and Brassfield, and Dr. Robinson; there was also James Cowdy and his wife and child, and Margetts and his wife; and many another, too, to say nothing of that frightful murder at the Mountain Meadows.
Besides these there is good reason to think that Lieutenant Gunnison and his party were also victims, although it was said that they were shot by “Indians.” The Potter and Parrish murders were notorious; Forbes, and Jones and his mother, might be added to the same list; the dumb boy, Andrew Bernard; a woman killed by her own husband; Morris the rival Prophet, and Banks, and four women who belonged to their party; Isaac Potter, and Charles Wilson, and John Walker. These are but a few. The death list is too long for me to venture to give it.
One instance I can give from my own personal knowledge. A sister who occasionally does a little work at my house on one occasion said to me: “Mrs. Stenhouse, when first I came to this country I lived in the southern portion of Utah. One day I saw a woman running across the fields towards our house, pale and trembling. When she came in she looked round her as if she were frightened, and she asked if any one besides our own family were present. On being assured that there was no one present whom she might fear, she said: `Two men came to our house late last night and asked to see my husband, who had already retired. He was in bed, but they insisted that he must get up as they had a message from “the authorities” for him. When they saw him they requested him to go with them to attend, they said, to some Church business. I became very much alarmed, for my poor husband had been known to speak rather freely of late of some of the measures of the Church, but he tried to reassure me and finally left the house with the two men. In about an hour after they came back bearing between them his lifeless body. They laid him upon the bed, and then one of them pulled aside the curtain which constituted our only cupboard, and took therefrom a bake-kettle and stood it beside the bed, in order to catch the blood that was flowing from a fearful wound in his throat. They then left the house telling me to make as little noise about it as possible or they might serve me in the same way. The men were masked, and I cannot tell who they are, but I spent a fearful night with my poor dead husband.’” This sister added: “Sister Stenhouse, in those more fearful times we dared not speak to each other about such things for fear of spies.”
These were all well-known and notorious instances. I say nothing of those of whose fate nothing-not even a whisper - was ever heard; and I say nothing of the frightful “cuttings off” before the Reformation and in recent years.
Gentile men and women were killed, for hatred; and that “killing” was no murder, for theirs was not innocent blood. Apostates, and Saints of doubtful faith, and those who were obnoxious, had their blood shed - all for love - and that “cutting off” was also no murder, because to secure their salvation by cutting their throats was an act of mercy. Can it be possible that men should thus act and say - and ,believe - that Jesus, the gentle and merciful Saviour, commanded it when He said: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?”
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