A Mormon president? New film shows links between Smith, Romney

Deseret Morning News ^ | Nov. 24, 2007 | Carrie A. Moore

[fallingwater]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695230114,00.html

[MHGinTN]

But the ground of sensational heresy in Mormonism is so fertile, how could one not find sensational material?

[FastCoyote]

[I have become something of an historian on the early Mormon church]

“Judging from your post, searcher for anti-Mormon sensationalism would be more descriptive.”

Actually, no it wouldn’t. Unlike you, I actually quote from first hand historical works while you only cite bubkiss, nada, zilch, hot air - get my drift? I’ve just gotten into Ann Young’s account of her murderous, lying thieving polygamous husband Brigham Young. He was heavy into Blood Atonement - the killing of apostates and Gentiles. This same legacy lives on the the Mormon church, which excommunicates and culls dissenters in a less bloody but no less effective way.

Sensationalism is if I personally blew something out of proportion. When you get eye witness accounts of how Mormons act, it’s hard to call it sensationalism.

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/19thwife/19thwifedownload.htm

Chapter ten about blood atonement and 13 about the Mountain Meadows massacre are particularly frightening. Why anyone would want to drag this legacy into the presidency is beyond comprehension.

[broncobilly]

But the ground of sensational heresy in Mormonism is so fertile, how could one not find sensational material?

---

The ground for admirable qualities is also fertile. You will find what you are looking for.
Also, with respect to FC, if one wants to call themselves a historian, a first requirement is to recognize the difference between fiction and non-fiction and between antagonistic reporting and objective reporting.

[FastCoyote]

“Also, with respect to FC, if one wants to call themselves a historian, a first requirement is to recognize the difference between fiction and non-fiction and between antagonistic reporting and objective reporting.”

Thanks for the ping (Not!)

So, I’ve quoted extensively from
1) Reed Peck (a Mormon jailed with Smith at Far West)
2) Ebenezer Robinson (who printed out of his own pocket the third printing of the BOM)
3) Illinois Gov. Ford (who actually prevented the annihilation of Nauvoo)
4) Emma Smith (wife of Joseph Smith)
5) Ann Eliza Young (born Mormon and 19th wife of Brigham Young)
6) Parley Pratt (Mormon Apostle and great great grand dad of Mitt)
7) The letters and legislative record of the State of Missouri
8) The Book of Mormon

And many others.

In contrast, you have based your argument that I am not a historian on - let’s see - why absolutely nothing! Squat!

Oh yes, you are an empty Coke bottle, if you blow across the top you can hear the wind whistle.

And what, pray tell is “the difference between fiction and non-fiction and between antagonistic reporting and objective reporting.”?

I guess that means that anyone irreparably harmed by Mormonism or people who were killed by Blood Atonement, should simply be forgotten because (surprise, surprise) they are antagonistic.

Well that just beats all. I guarantee you’ve not read Ann Eliza Young’s book, or you would be disgusted with yourself.

[broncobilly]

I actually quote from first hand historical works while you only cite bubkiss, nada, zilch, hot air - get my drift?

---

Yes. I get your drift. And I get two impressions:
1) You think you have snatched on to a few juicy morsels and you are eager to wave them to the world. Believe me, I could bury you in references if I wanted to. But I have no desire to be dragged into a pissing contest with you over Mormonism. That is not what FR is for.
2) Let me explain a difference between me and you. By your many posts you have shown an eagerness to spout anti-Mormonism on FR. In contrast, I have no desire to promote Mormonism on FR. I only discuss the subject to refute errors and attacks. The fewer words the better for me.

[FastCoyote]

“The fewer words the better for me.”

I know, you need to hide things like what a murderous scumbag Brigham Young was, so the fewer words said the easier it is to confuse.

But I must ask, have you read Ann Eliza Young’s account? Or any of the other works I mentioned above? Or do you only read things from the mothership?

[greyfoxx39]

“I think you can put me down on record as saying that the Mormon Church can get extremely ugly and nasty if they want to, when something is done to make them look bad or give them a negative image. And it doesn’t matter how well researched or how much truth the piece may contain.”

    - Interview with Richard Clark, January 13, 1982, in John Heinerman and Anson Shule, The Mormon Corporate Empire, p. 69

 

“Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local.... Evil-speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true.”

-    1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, pp. 24-25

 

[TheBattman]

I can understand your feelings and beliefs, but your statements fly in the face of our founding father’s own words and intent.

[redrock]

Please name one denomination of Christianity that doesn't have some things done in its name that were a little off??

....and since you have set yourselves up to be the sole judge of who is correct and who is not in their beliefs....it must mean you have an extreme amount of knowledge about the beginnings of Christianity and the early Church.

How many manuscripts do we have of the "original" New Testament?? (I use the term original loosely since it was a NON-Christian who decided what went INTO the New Testament and did so for somewhat POLITICAL reasons).

DO you agree or disagree with such an important person as Thomas Jefferson that the New Testament was translated somewhat incorectly?? I've read the ORIGINAL copies that we have left (NONE from the time of Christ) and many of the lines can be interpreted many different ways.

Perhaps it would be better (for ALL the followers of Christ) if your basis for your beliefs would not be based on pointing out everyone elses faults. I have lived in Utah for around 30 years now (and am NOT LDS) and I find the LDS people to be good followers of Christ. You may not like them...but your constant asinine bleatings about every little possible wrong about them is getting boring.

....really boring.

redrock

[FastCoyote]

“Please name one denomination of Christianity that doesn’t have some things done in its name that were a little off??”

Please provide for me links to denominations that have websites run by former members (some almost suicidal) that complain of brainwashing, shunning, superstitious behavior, etc.

Here’s one for the Mormons, read it and weep:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon457.htm

“....and since you have set yourselves up to be the sole judge of who is correct and who is not in their beliefs....”

I’m sorry, I never got that memo. In fact, if it were true, you wouldn’t be allowed to speak. But truthfully, it is the Mormons who regularly excommunicate people for speaking out, actually, Brigham Young used to have them killed “by the indians”, a little thing they called Blood Atonement. So why don’t you find us a denomination that has Blood Atonement in their past.

“it must mean you have an extreme amount of knowledge about the beginnings of Christianity and the early Church.”

Please provide us with your information, always open to be enlightened. I do have quite a lot of historical research on the Mormon church though, and it isn’t pretty.

[How many manuscripts do we have of the “original” New Testament?? (I use the term original loosely since it was a NON-Christian who decided what went INTO the New Testament and did so for somewhat POLITICAL reasons).]

And the amazing thing is that they differ less than the BOM has over 180 years.

[DO you agree or disagree with such an important person as Thomas Jefferson that the New Testament was translated somewhat incorectly?? I’ve read the ORIGINAL copies that we have left (NONE from the time of Christ) and many of the lines can be interpreted many different ways.]

Good for you. Were those copies dictated by a treasure hunter looking through a peepstone into his hat? By a guy who claimed he also translated “reformed” Egyptian? I think not.

[Perhaps it would be better (for ALL the followers of Christ) if your basis for your beliefs would not be based on pointing out everyone elses faults.]

I prefer to point out doctrines that would affect the stability of a presidential candidate. The man-God doctrine is prone to abuse, as well as the left overs from Blood Atonement. I find it amusing that you would point out our faults, while denying our right to do the same.

[I have lived in Utah for around 30 years now (and am NOT LDS) and I find the LDS people to be good followers of Christ. You may not like them...but your constant asinine bleatings about every little possible wrong about them is getting boring.....really boring.redrock]

And your asinine bleatings are rather noxious as well. Just to repay your compliment.

[Verginius Rufus]

The article quotes Christing saying that most people don’t realize that Mitt Romney is not the first Mormon to run for President. In other words, most people are unaware that Mitt’s father, George Romney, ran for President.

[redrock]

Once again...you fail to answer the questions.

Guess you just refer to bleat.

...and be boring.

redrock

[MHGinTN]

With this comment, you prove yourself under delusion: "I use the term original loosely since it was a NON-Christian who decided what went INTO the New Testament and did so for somewhat POLITICAL reasons."

For months Mormonism Apologists have been spewing such devilish seeds at FR. Frankly, you're behind the curve. And if the B of M were an actual text from God, it could only be a secondary source since the supposed plates from which Smith claimed he translated are nowehre to be found! Scurry back into your burrow, mole.

[MHGinTN]

Just for reading reference, it is important to note that Clement (95 AD), Ignatius (107 AD), and Polycarp (110 AD) all referred to the letters of Paul (twelve of the thirteen letters!) in their writings, nearly 100 times. The canon of scriptures was established by 100 AD, except for the little letter to Philemon.

Here's an approximate timeline to help get a grasp of the immediacy of the source for the Gospels and letters of Paul:

30 AD Crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus
32 AD Paul meets The Lord on the road to Damascus
32 - 35 Paul spends years in the desert studying & perhaps preaching
35 AD Paul goes to Jerusalem to meet with the Apostles the first time
49 AD Paul goes back to the Apostles to get re-affirmation
51 AD Paul preaches in Corinth
55 AD Paul's First letter to the Corinthinas is sent, in which he states that what he delivered unto them is what he had confirmed for him regarding the life and death and resurrection of Jesus

[AppyPappy]

Lord I hope not. I can’t imagine L Ron Smith in the White House.

[damondonion]

I don't see any sort of a mid 19'th century massacre being meaningful to today's political scene. Again I could vote for Romney easily enough, but not for somebody who CONVERTED to the LDS church; I'd want a president to be a tad more discerning than that.

The point at which LDS theology starts getting seriously funny is when you start doing google searches on 'Joseph Smith' and 'Rosetta Stone'......

[FastCoyote]

“I don’t see any sort of a mid 19’th century massacre being meaningful to today’s political scene.”

The massacre was about culling outsiders - an us versus them mentality typical of cults. Ignore it if you want, but I’ve seen enough of here in Mormon Vegas to know it exists.

[Enough_Deceit]

I am heartbroken! You said you wouldn’t vote for me if I ever ran for something because I am a convert. LOL. Had to give you a hard time, all in fun, FRiend.

Personally, I like Duncan.

Have a wonderful day!

[broncobilly]

The massacre was about culling outsiders

---

And you claim to be an historian? You know zilch about Mormon history.
The Mountain Meadow Massacre had nothing to do with culling outsiders. It was a backlash of the massacre of Mormons at Haun’s Mill. It was the backlash of having been driven out of Missouri at gun point. It was the backlash against the burning of homes around Nauvoo. It was the backlash against the murder of Joseph Smith. It was the backlash against being driven out of Illinois into the western wilderness where their trail is marked by a string of graves from Nauvoo to the Salt Lake Valley. It was the backlash against the murder of a church leader in Arkansas. It was the backlash against Pres. Buchanan sending an army to Salt Lake City in 1857 to subdue them. They had been pushed one too many times and some of them struck back, unfortunately.

[FastCoyote]

[And you claim to be an historian? You know zilch about Mormon history.
The Mountain Meadow Massacre had nothing to do with culling outsiders. It was a backlash of the massacre of Mormons at Haun’s Mill. It was the backlash of having been driven out of Missouri at gun point. It was the backlash against the burning of homes around Nauvoo. It was the backlash against the murder of Joseph Smith. It was the backlash against being driven out of Illinois into the western wilderness where their trail is marked by a string of graves from Nauvoo to the Salt Lake Valley. It was the backlash against the murder of a church leader in Arkansas. It was the backlash against Pres. Buchanan sending an army to Salt Lake City in 1857 to subdue them. They had been pushed one too many times and some of them struck back, unfortunately.]

Everything you just pointed out was - an attempt to cull outsiders! ! ! I mean, how dense can you get, no sprechen sie English??

“They had been pushed one too many times and some of them struck back, unfortunately.”

What a lie, they were in Utah out of control of national laws at that point, what part of “culling innocent men, women and children” do you not get? And the killing was done with the knowledge of Brigham Young, no less.

But I see you are proud of your heritage. Why don’t you read Wife No. 19 and see what a murderous band Brigham Young led.