Posted on 11/24/2007 5:16:09 AM PST by Salena Zito
... & pardon these 2 Saturday, November 24, 2007
The degrading, draconian and disgraceful incarceration of former Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean indicates President George W. Bush, the self-anointed compassionate conservative, is capable of stone-cold stupidity. By doing their duty along the near-lawless border with Mexico, Messrs. Ramos and Compean have become tragic symbols of this nation's gross incompetence regarding enforcement of immigration law.
(Excerpt) Read more at pittsburghlive.com ...
I don't see any way that Davila will get off. Now, will they find a way to ship him back to Mexico instead of sending him to prison? It would not surprise me!
I just know that R&C will be vindicated and cleared! I'm finding myself very excited for Dec. 5th!
With Border Agent Oscar Juarez completely changing his story no fewer than five times, I find their testimony totally unbelievable. It also appears to have been coerced as the final version, that matched exactly what prosecutors wanted to hear, came only after threat of prosecution... for being an accomplice to the murder charges filed against Ramos and Compean.
Man, that's a massive red flag right there. They need to find out exactly where he got his treatment.
I like your optimism about R&C.
I’m more skeptical about Davila. I can see the Sutton bunch throwing the case just to say “See, I told ya we didn’t have enough evidence against him.” Nothing would surprise me from this bunch anymore—except them doing the right thing.
I doubt we’ll ever find out—unfortunately.
For those who question whether he was even shot by R&C, vs. a later shooting by the drug lords (or other),
it does offer support for their argument.
The first ballistics test only established that “the manufacturer of the firearm that fired the copper-jacketed bullet is unknown, but could include commonly encountered models of .40 S&W caliber FN/Browning, Beretta, Heckler & Koch, and Ruger pistols.”
The second ballistics test was never admitted or discussed because for some (stupid) reason, Ramos’s attorney stipulated that the bullet came from his gun. There were all sorts of questions that would never be answered. Like how did CSanchez file a complaint saying it was Ramos’s gun, before that gun was ever even taken from Ramos’s custody? (The OIG-DHS report shows a ballistics test dated in April, a full month after the complaint/arrest). What was the chain of custody on the bullet taken from Alderete-Davila’s leg (reports said he took it home wiht him that night, along with taking OAD to stay with him). Etc., etc., etc.
So many questions—so few answers.
No, that is what YOU are trying to make the thread about. Please read the thread title. Better yet, go back to Mexico.
“To this day, he still doesn’t understand the level of anger the American people have on this.”
IMO he understands perfectly well, he just doesn’t care.
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The free-trader/open-border type of elitists care very much. It is a high priority to punish those 2 border agents, to send a signal to all other border agents to not enforce the law.
Heck, in this thread you’ve still got people arguing that there’s no evidence Ramos SHOT the guy.
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NEGATIVE Chucky ,,, didn’t say that ,, what I said was that we had no proof ,, Ramos shot at the perp but we have no direct evidence that he was hit at that time. All you’ve shown as evidence to the contrary is inuendo and presumptions by people at a distance from the perp. I haven’t seen the FBI bullet match “evidence” and based on the fact that there is a current FBI scandal over faked and false bullet matches presented as fact (the kind of match we have here where a tiny fragment is tested for “composition” of the metals in manufacturing ,, the WEAKEST kind of match possible) in hundreds of cases AND a prosecutor that tainted the case by suppressing evidence through unscrupulous maneuvers intended to hide the truth of the case I’m backing the Border Patrol.
And they cleaned the area of the shell casings and did not report the shooting as they were supposed to.
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Been under a rock? They reported the shooting to their superiors who were on the scene, a verbal report is the customary method in this situation , they followed protocol, this is nothing more than a political prosecution.
Yes. I have said that Compean and Ramos gave evidence that they believed he had a gun. That evidence would probably have saved them a conviction if not for the contradicting evidence.
I don’t know why you consider that tortured logic. Are you desiring to restrict “evidence” to physical evidence? There’s a reason for the term “physical evidence” — because there are OTHER kinds of evidence.
The only physical evidence that would come close to proving he didn’t have a gun would be to have caught him and searched him. Except that you could still claim he threw it away. Even if they didn’t SEE him do it, he could have dropped it in the river, or thrown it in the brush. Even if they searched the place and didn’t find it, it’s a big place.
Let me refresh your memory in case you can't go back and read the whole conversation.
We were discussing whether Davila's injuries could require expensive medical treatment (something I'm pretty sure you wouldn't disagree with, at least not while I'm around). aneangels@aolcom said:
One injury to his backside and he still got away, apparently without limping or being slowed down at all. That is not the definition of serious.
If you are honest, you will admit that the above statement is false. I, knowing it to be false, responded in kind to the post, using the SAME WORDS:
Testimony is that he limped away, and was slowed down. He was seen being helped into a car on the other side of the border.
Nowhere did I say "immediately after being shot", and in fact it's clear my statement covered the remaining time of the event as I specifically mention his getting into a car in Mexico.
And the testimony said exactly what I claimed it said, that he was seen limping away, and that he was going slow (walking, not running).
BTW, I was not making an argument. I was simply stating the facts of the testimony, to correct an incorrect statement by another person.
It's a shame that quoting testimony is considered misleading, but claiming with no evidence that a border agent is a criminal involved in the drug trade is considered acceptable.
I know, it’s amazing I actually had to ARGUE that point, but some people really did think that you couldn’t have evidence to prove something didn’t exist.
BTW, you have that saying backwards, it’s Bears DO crap in the woods. The evidence is those little piles laying around, and the observation that bears must defecate.
I presume you didn't want to have to answer the real question, so instead you took the time to verify I typed the number wrong so you could sound witty without having to deal with the facts.
As to your other statement, that's fine, if you are too lazy to verify that you lied, what can I do about it? Obviously I can't respond by posting every statement I ever made in order to show the rest of the community that you lied about what I said, I just assumed you were an honorable person who would either prove you did not lie, or admit that you lied and apologize.
To be clear, you made the following statement:
Tell us again how he was “just a mule” trying to raise money for his poor sick mother. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
In using the word "again" you were saying that you had evidence I had said this previously. And now you refuse to retract the claim or show it to be true.
I don't think it's relevant at all, but you are the one who brought it up. You have a weird sense of honor, bringing up irrelevant and false slanders of fellow freepers and then complaining about the relevance when they call you on it.
OK, that was a bit of hyperbole. SOME pro-C/R people are quite willing to assert without evidence the guilt of people who stand in the way of freeing their golden boys.
It isn’t EVERY person who supports them, and there are probably one or two people who haven’t been attacked.
But so far, the list is pretty extensive. Sutton, the investigator, all the other agents on the scene that day, the investigator’s family, the actual prosecuters on the case, the judge, Gonzalez, the Department of Homeland Security, the President. Did I miss anybody on the hit-list of guilty people?
I apologize that my statement could be read as an attack on every pro-R/C person, and of you personally. I meant only to convey the general tendency of people defending R/C to believe anything they hear that helps their side, while showing a level of critical thinking far beyond what is useful when it comes to C/R themselves.
I thought you’d understand “evidence” in a legal meaning, especially after it was explained to you.
If I have been “proven wrong” so many times, it shouldn’t have been hard to find one.
It’s not really hard to “prove” me wrong, I’ve got no skin in this fight and I’m simply reporting the facts as they are known. When I get a fact wrong, I appreciate correction. For example, I mistakenly typed “3 million” when the correct number was ‘1 million’. See, no problem correcting my own errors when they are pointed out to me.
There are people with agendas. It amazes me that the pro-R/C folks think they have the truth when they can’t even convince someone like me who is ONLY interested in the facts and rational interpretations of those facts.
I’m still unsure what wanting to stay out of the threads has to do with self-esteem, or the simple suggestion that if you don’t want people correcting your errors, correct them yourself.
Most people who know the facts stay out of these threads because they consider it a hopeless cause to talk facts here. I should do the same, but I hate seeing false statements in print.
And 4 months after Ronald Reagan was shot, he was running the country. How bad could it have been?
I don’t know why you are ignoring the direct testimony of the medical doctors who treated him, simply to suggest through illogical argument that his injuries were not as the doctors claimed them to be.
Talk about irrelevant. Some poster who is long gone claimed Davila received over a million dollars for his testimony. I suggested (being kind to him) that maybe he was confused and that was the amount of medical treatment he received.
And for some reason, people started to argue that he didn’t need expensive medical treatment, that he wasn’t really hurt.
I’ve shown that the medical doctors testified his injury was life-threatening, required specialized surgery (with a second doctor who was an expert), required additional cosemetic surgery, and might not ever be corrected. I’ve shown that the testimony at the trial was that he WAS slowed down, and was seen by some as limping between the time he was shot and the time he was picked up.
In short, I’ve shown by the facts of the case that his injuries were serious. I don’t know why anybody is arguing otherwise. And all this simply because I wanted to give another poster a possible explanation for his claim with no supporting evidence given that Davila was paid over a million for his testimony.
Just for my own edification, would you mind giving me a link to a story (even WND will do at this point) that he was running drugs in June of the year he was shot? I know he was just arrested, I believe for drugs in October. I haven’t seen a report of a June run.
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