Posted on 11/17/2007 6:27:48 PM PST by Nathan_Hale76
Mitt Romney called attempts to undermine him by questioning his Mormon faith "un-American" as he spoke to reporters in Nevada yesterday. Romney was specifically responding to reported "push-poll" phone calls being made in Iowa and New Hampshire, in which the calls reportedly begin as opinion polls but turn into statements and questions designed to highlight and cast doubt on Romney's Mormon faith. Here is what Romney had to say.....(Video)
(Excerpt) Read more at rightviewsusa.com ...
~”I see you didn’t address the “meat” of the post.”~
Why should I? I’m deriving much more satisfaction from taunting you than I ever have from arguing the same points with you over again.
Why?
What part of brainwashing don’t you understand? I quoted directly from the Deseret News, so unless you are calling the Mormons at the Deseret News liars, you hardly have reason to slander me. But wait, I forgot, when you have no defense but name calling, that’s all you can do. Here is the Deseret quote:
[First, his father made the decision to run for president in earnest. Second, when he wasn’t crisscrossing the country, George Romney was guiding Ann Davies through her conversion into the LDS faith.
With Mitt away, Ann told George she was interested in attending LDS services. The governor headed straight for the Davies home. He asked Ann’s parents for permission to send some U.S.-based missionaries to meet with Ann. Her mother was an easy sell. But getting clearance from Ann’s father, whose rejection of organized religion ran deep, would be a much tougher challenge.
Ultimately, Edward Davies and George Romney shook hands on an agreement: George could send the missionaries, provided Ann’s mother sat in on the discussions. Ann’s younger brother, Jim Davies, says their father relented based on the trust he had in his daughter and the admiration he had for George Romney. Besides, the governor outranked him. In addition to being a self-made businessman, Edward Davies was the part-time mayor of Bloomfield Hills.
The missionaries came for six straight sessions, sitting with Ann in the family room on the lower level of the Davies’ split-level home, taking her through the LDS conversion process. Besides her mother, Ann’s friend Cindy Burton sat in on the lessons. Cindy also was the girlfriend of Ann’s older brother, Rod, who was doing a study-abroad year in England. Little brother Jim wanted to sit in as well, but his parents decided he was too young. So Jim stood outside the family room window, listening in.]
*************************
So, Big Man George has to coerce Ann into the Mormon faith so his son the BMOC can have a cuddlebunny when he returns from dodging the Vietnam war. Now you may disagree with my analysis, but the facts come directly from your brethren at Deseret and they aren’t flattering no matter how you spin it.
Here’s how we can tell how perverted it is. I’ll find a 15 year old Mormon girl as a guinea pig, and I know an 18 year old fundamentalist boy who is quite a charmer. Then I’ll send some fundamentalist friends over to the girl’s house to convert her. It should take only, say, 6 sessions.
Of course, we’ll see how far this gets with the generically unbigoted Mormon father of the 15 year old girl. You should have no problem with this experiment, it is as similar as I can make it to the Romney situation.
[~”Yeah, that’s why ‘bigot’ is a worthless taunt.”~
A bit like “cult,” it seems to me.]
No, the word cult is not self referential, you cannot even form a similar sentence to the one I did above. That is: A cultist against cults is not by definition a cultist (they would be an anti-cultist). But of course, you have no clue about self referential statements, so I am again preaching to the brick.
FC:~”Here I have forced someone into professing they would not be bigoted against Satanists, and they see no absurdity in that.”~
TB:Then you need to learn the correct definition of the term. I have it posted above for your convenient reference.
You have stated that you would not be intolerant of Satanists (i.e., you are tolerant of Satanists, to remove the double negative). You can slice and dice your definitions any way you want, but I am intolerant of Satanists and you are not. I will never in a million eternities vote for a Satanist, while you would. Anyone not under the influence of a psychotropic drug realizes that that is an asinine position for you to take. But please, prove my points.
And stop with the “Best Regards” bit, you’ve already sent me enough ill will my way to make that false. At least be man enough to admit you don’t wish me the best at all. Unless all you can do is spin to hide your true views, like Romney.
~”What part of brainwashing don’t you understand? I quoted directly from the Deseret News, so unless you are calling the Mormons at the Deseret News liars, you hardly have reason to slander me.”~
Deseret News, unless I missed it, did not use the term “brainwashing.” You decided to throw that in for good measure, just as you decided to toss in the part about Ann somehow being coerced.
A young woman deciding to accept the theology of a religious organization that she thinks is the truth is not brainwashing. It’s called “conversion.” You know, like Jesus did with all those people way back when?
~”Of course, we’ll see how far this gets with the generically unbigoted Mormon father of the 15 year old girl.”~
It seems to me that Ann’s father trusted her judgment - or did you miss that part of the story?
You’d better get a whole lot better at defending this position, FC. You’re going to be seeing a lot of it for a while.
[Deseret News, unless I missed it, did not use the term “brainwashing.”]
Mormons never use the term brainwashing, nor do Scientologists, until they are ex-Mormons or ex-Scientologists. That’s when the term brainwashing becomes apparent in most of their writings. So I’ll stick with the term.
“You decided to throw that in for good measure, just as you decided to toss in the part about Ann somehow being coerced.”
Any time you take a sixteen year old to the house of a presidential candidate and subject her to six sessions under peer pressure, that’s brainwashing. If you don’t think so, then offer up a 15 year old Mormon girl to my care for six sessions of “conversion” to Satanism (as you seem quite tolerant of that sect).
“A young woman deciding to accept the theology of a religious organization that she thinks is the truth is not brainwashing.”
Yeah sure. We’ll put this out for comments.
“It’s called “conversion.” You know, like Jesus did with all those people way back when?”
So you are telling me the Romneys are Christ like figures???
~”Of course, we’ll see how far this gets with the generically unbigoted Mormon father of the 15 year old girl.”~
“It seems to me that Ann’s father trusted her judgment - or did you miss that part of the story?”
I consider him just as much a freak.
“You’d better get a whole lot better at defending this position, FC. You’re going to be seeing a lot of it for a while.”
Like I said, please do. Normal people know freaky brainwashing when they see it.
~”No, the word cult is not self referential...”~
No, but it is a worthless taunt. Do try to keep up.
But along those lines, you are making an interesting claim when you say I am a member of a cult, given your own cult membership. That is, of course, using the strictly denotative definition of the term.
~”You have stated that you would not be intolerant of Satanists”~
You betcha. They are wrong, but what good does it do either them or me to hate them? How does that persuade them to change?
Now, one thing I would wonder were there a Satanist politician is how said belief system might inform such a person’s policy decisions. Since I can’t imagine good results in that situation, I probably wouldn’t support such a candidate.
You can’t credibly say the same thing with regards to Romney, since he by and large supports the same social values you do. You just don’t like Mormons. Oh, you try to dress that simple fact up in all sorts of ways to make it seem more palatable; but that is the fundamental factor that drives your animus against him.
I can’t blame you, really; it must be frustrating to be surrounded with people you don’t like and not be able to say anything about it. FR, it seems, has become your personal pressure relief valve. I suppose that’s healthy in some ways.
~”And stop with the “Best Regards” bit, you’ve already sent me enough ill will my way to make that false. At least be man enough to admit you don’t wish me the best at all.”~
See, that is an example of projection, FC. I must admit I have fun exposing your prejudices and egging you on until you embarass yourself with them, and this is probably a less than charitable thing for me to do. But, outside of your relentless attacks against the faith that I hold dear, I really have nothing against you personally.
And I do wish you the best; I don’t think anybody is beyond redemption - fortunately for me.
~”Unless all you can do is spin to hide your true views, like Romney.”~
Nah, I’m about as straight a shooter as they come. I’m here to learn, not convince or trick; therefore, I’ve no reason to hide or spin anything. You keep teaching me new things, so I greatly enjoy our conversations.
Best regards!
And... Go Mitt!
~”Any time you take a sixteen year old to the house of a presidential candidate and subject her to six sessions under peer pressure, that’s brainwashing.”~
See, there you go again. Making up details that aren’t in the story. You asked me before to cite your lies. Was this an honest mistake? Given your track record, I have my doubts. Then again, you are doing so in the same breath that you actually quote the text of the story, so perhaps you simply didn’t read it very carefully. Either way, FC, this sort of carelessness is yet another blow to your credibility.
It is plain from the text of the article that the missionaries met with Ann, her mother, and her friend Cindy in her own home - without Romney’s father present. All George Romney did at that stage was clear it with Ann’s parents and arrange the meetings.
Perhaps your derangement, FC, is making you see things. Take a deep breath, maybe get a good night’s sleep. The fog should clear up by morning.
~”So you are telling me the Romneys are Christ like figures???”~
There you go again. Assuming the worst and choosing to interpret according to that template. That’s silly. My point is that, if the Mormon missionaries converted Ann Romney through brainwashing, then Jesus did the same with the early Christians. Conversion is not brainwashing, regardless of your personal vendetta to smear the LDS Church. It is a personal spiritual decision - one that Ann Romney saw fit to make as a teenager, and one in which her parents apparently supported her (and her two brothers later, if you continue reading the story).
Or, perhaps my own brainwashing is clouding my judgment? Perhaps conversion to the Lutheran denomination is the only conversion that is not brainwashing?
Come on, are you -trying- to make this so easy for me? You used to be so much more challenging.
~”I consider him just as much a freak.”~
That seems to be a common ailment in your world. It must be tough being only one of so few normal people.
By the way, I’ve been meaning to ask you, how’s that legal case coming along? Have you been making headway?
Best regards!
“... then Jesus did the same with the early Christians.” It would be interesting to read to what you’re referring with this assertion. Did Christianity start with Pentecost? With the coming of the Holy Spirit to the disciples, turning them into Apostles?
~”No, the word cult is not self referential...”~
TB: No, but it is a worthless taunt. Do try to keep up.
Okay, Mormonism is a cult whose apostates are shunned and in great mental anguish from realizing their lives have been wasted and their souls set adrift. Not exactly worthless, it’s a pretty devastating taunt if you ask me, sends chills up my spine it is so cold and full of despair.
“But along those lines, you are making an interesting claim when you say I am a member of a cult, given your own cult membership. That is, of course, using the strictly denotative definition of the term.”
Fine, as I’ve asked you countless times, please provide me with any link to “suicidal ex Lutherans”, that would be definitive proof that we are a cult. Since you cannot do so, I suggest you are full of crap, while I can certainly provide you with numerous links to those in despair over Mormonism.
~”You have stated that you would not be intolerant of Satanists”~
[You betcha. They are wrong, but what good does it do either them or me to hate them? How does that persuade them to change?]
Again, I have asked you repeatedly for your address so I can direct Satanists to your doorstep so you can prove your true level of tolerance. As for myself, I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family, though I run into them from time to time in the course of daily life and would be happy to provide you with new “friends”. But of course, you are all talk and no action.
[Now, one thing I would wonder were there a Satanist politician is how said belief system might inform such a person’s policy decisions. Since I can’t imagine good results in that situation, I probably wouldn’t support such a candidate.]
How delightsome of you to think so. But since by your criteria you couldn’t ask them questions about their religion, you will never know. Isn’t mindless tolerance of cults grand?
“You can’t credibly say the same thing with regards to Romney, since he by and large supports the same social values you do.”
No he only has some of the same social values, as evidenced by his RINO flip-flopping. Your spiritual values are maybe not 180 degrees out, but certainly over 120.
“You just don’t like Mormons.”
That would be correct on a generic level, they have proven dangerous to my health, wealth and soul repeatedly over the last 35 years. But I regularly have social reactions with Mormons which are pleasant enough. I just will never again do a business deal with Mormons at less than arm’s length.
[Oh, you try to dress that simple fact up in all sorts of ways to make it seem more palatable;]
like your repeated “Best Regards” isn’t as thin as rice paper.
[but that is the fundamental factor that drives your animus against him.]
No, the animus comes from multiple experiences with Mormons that have as a whole been quite unpleasant (involving threats, superstition, nepotism, embezzlement, false charges, clique behavior, etc.)
“I can’t blame you, really; it must be frustrating to be surrounded with people you don’t like and not be able to say anything about it.”
Hell yes it’s frustrating, there are a lot of Mafia people I have to watch out for who are even worse. I’ll give you that, the Mafia guys would kill me, the Mormons would just ruin my business or maybe beat me up.
[FR, it seems, has become your personal pressure relief valve. I suppose that’s healthy in some ways.]
Oh thanks, you really really care ;) I’m stuck at a computer a lot because of the structure of my business. I need to hire some Vegas lapdancers - um I mean secretaries, to cut my workload:) Actually, that would just increase it.
~”And stop with the “Best Regards” bit, you’ve already sent me enough ill will my way to make that false. At least be man enough to admit you don’t wish me the best at all.”~
[See, that is an example of projection, FC. I must admit I have fun exposing your prejudices and egging you on until you embarass yourself with them, and this is probably a less than charitable thing for me to do. But, outside of your relentless attacks against the faith that I hold dear, I really have nothing against you personally.]
And some day when you think back about who told you things straight up, and didn’t pull punches, you’ll understand I did you a favor.
[And I do wish you the best; I don’t think anybody is beyond redemption - fortunately for me.]
And truthfully, you probably still have a chance at figuring things out in the long run. Some of the others are irretrievably lost.
~”Unless all you can do is spin to hide your true views, like Romney.”~
[Nah, I’m about as straight a shooter as they come. I’m here to learn, not convince or trick; therefore, I’ve no reason to hide or spin anything. You keep teaching me new things, so I greatly enjoy our conversations.
Best regards!
And... Go Mitt!]
I’ll leave it at that.
“You are mistaken in regards to the country being founded on the freedom of religion outside of Christianity.”
Let’s let a couple of the founders’ quotes speak for themselves:
From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.” —Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776
“I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.” —Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803.
“[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.” (Thomas Jefferson)
“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith…” (Thomas Paine, “Common Sense,” 1776)
Those are just a few quotes, in addition to the Constitution.
Yeeks, What's wrong with YOU? You were instructed to complete your mission and get married years ago!
I don't see how anyone can take seriously a candidate who believes in magical underpants.
Those quotes all applied to then an understanding of Christianity, albeit I grant you many of those who were masons at the time sought a relationship with God based upon reason void of faith alone in Christ alone. Their further machinations were later challenged by John Quincy Adams who revealed much of the mendacity proposed by those who sought to promote occultic brotherhoods.
The original foundations of the doctrines of separation of Church and State predated the federalists by several hundred years.
MIND READING PING
No, not mind reading — personal contact/experience. I ran into your group once accidentally. This article/thread is about push polls and religious freedom in America. I hope someone finds out who was responsible for doing these push polls. Bashing someone’s religion is unacceptable and religious bigotry is unacceptable.
Many words have been typed, quite convincingly, showing that Mormonism is bogus; but somehow TB's are never convinced.
| bigot |
Oh great...you and GL went to the same maturity classes in Jr. High..I see. ROFLOL..!!
And by the way....that was THREE "I's"....It's all me, me, me..for you ain't it Tant.
It's very common of you, and others..when cornered to just not answer the charge/question/statement. Or just call the poster a intolerant bigot.
Pretty weak....
fwiw-
Well then; by all means; GO FOR IT!!
Let's just get JS' statement that ALL of their professors are corrupt and their creeds an ABOMINATION into the media!
Let's just slug it out over the airwaves and, God willing, the Truth will prevail; right??
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