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Pasadena man remorseful about killings captured on 911 call, attorney says
Houston Chronicle ^ | Nov. 17, 2007 | ALLAN TURNER and DALE LEZON

Posted on 11/17/2007 7:33:50 AM PST by Dubya

The Pasadena man who killed two suspected burglars as they left his next-door neighbor's home did not intend to kill them when he stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun, his lawyer said Friday.

In portraying Joe Horn as a victim of circumstances, lawyer and longtime friend Tom Lambright called the 61-year-old computer consultant "a good family man" who has been devastated by the Wednesday afternoon burglary and shooting.

Killed in the incident in the 7400 block of Timberline were Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston.

Each had a minor previous brush with the law. Records show DeJesus was charged with failure to identify himself to a police officer in July 2004. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 20 days in jail. Ortiz was charged with possession of marijuana in July 2005, but it was later dismissed.

"He (Horn) was just doing what everyone is supposed to do," Lambright said at a news conference in front of the Houston police memorial near downtown. "He called the police. He was cooperating with them as best he could, trying to give the police the direction of the burglars. He knew there was danger going outside."

Horn ignored repeated instructions from a 911 dispatcher to remain in his home. He told the dispatcher, "I'm not going to let them get away with it. I can't take a chance in getting killed over this. OK? I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot."

While lawyers and legal experts across the city continued to debate the legality of Horn's actions, he has left town with his family, Lambright said.

"Hopefully he will see a doctor and maybe get a sedative," he said. "He is not well mentally. This has devastated him. Not in his wildest dreams could he fathom this event."

Lambright said Horn, whom he has considered a friend for 41 years, wept inconsolably during their conversations.

"Joe is the absolute opposite of what everyone thinks he is," Lambright said. "He is not a cowboy. He is not physical. He's 61 years old and overweight. He's not confrontational. He's just a good guy."

Lambright read a written statement in which Horn said the killings would "weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased."

Lambright said Horn was a hunter, but kept the shotgun in his pickup "for security."

No firearms in house Horn lives with his daughter and granddaughter and does not keep firearms in the house, his lawyer said.

Lambright said Horn was upstairs working at a computer about 2 p.m. when he heard the sound of breaking glass next door. Horn called 911, engaging in a protracted conversation with the dispatcher, who repeatedly advised him to wait inside until police arrived.

"Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house. You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun," the dispatcher told Horn at one point.

"You wanna make a bet," Horn responded. "I'm gonna kill them. They're gonna get away."

Legal opinions conflict Lambright contended that Horn was startled to find the burglars just 15 feet from his front door when he stepped onto his porch. "He was petrified at that point," the lawyer said. "You hear him say, 'I'll shoot. Stop!' They jumped. Joe thought they were coming for him. It's a self-defense issue."

Attorneys and legal experts said Horn's defense probably will be based on state law that allows people to use deadly force to protect neighbors' property.

"If you see someone stealing your neighbor's property, you can get involved and help to stop it," said Sandra Guerra Thompson, a law professor at the University of Houston Law Center.

Others disagreed.

The statutes that allow people to use deadly force to stop a burglary appear to require that the incident be occurring at night, said Craig Jett, a Dallas criminal defense attorney and president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyer's Association.

"It can't be during the day," Jett said.

Experts said that a grand jury may sympathize with Horn. Some people believe that you should be able to protect your neighborhood, said Anthony Osso, a Houston criminal defense attorney.

Osso said that Horn's defense might be that he wanted to prevent the robbers from leaving until police arrived, but they tried to flee and he shot them.

"His best scenario is that he went out to use the threat of deadly force," Osso said. "But they came at him on his own property."

Osso said Horn's 911 call does not tell the whole story about the shooting. Investigators will need information about where the suspects were shot and if they had stopped when Horn ordered them not to move.

"Some people on the grand jury will sympathize with him," said Adam Gershowitz, a law professor at South Texas College of Law. "Maybe he shouldn't have done this, but he was acting in a way a lot of people feel."

But that does not mean he won't be charged, Gershowitz added.

"There's a reason we don't let people take the law into their own hands," he said. "We have a police force for that. As an established society, we believe we are better off with an authorized police force that has standards and training rather than untrained vigilantes."

A transcript of the 911 call suggests Horn intended to do what he felt necessary to stop the burglars. Despite a concerted effort by the dispatcher to persuade him to let police deal with the break-in, Horn was insistent on trying keep them from getting away.

"I don't want you going outside, Mr. Horn," the dispatcher said.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

Seconds later three shotgun blasts are heard.

Praise for dispatcher Experts who reviewed a recording of the call at the Chronicle's request said the dispatcher handled the call professionally and did all he could to defuse the situation until police arrived.

"He was doing everything he could to 'normalize' the conversation and not agitate the caller any further," said Sue Pivetta, a training consultant from Sumner, Wash. "Trust me when I say that he was indeed showing professional control at the highest level."

Charles Carter, a former police executive in Atlanta who has trained dispatchers for two decades, said the officer who handled Horn's call used proven techniques to dissuade him from leaving his home.

"We teach a technique called repetitive persistence," Carter said. "It needs to be at a level lower than the person calling to try to get him to calm down and listen to you. ... He did an outstanding job and needs to be commended."

Chronicle reporters Mike Tolson and Ruth Rendon contributed to this report.

allan.turner@chron.com

dale.lezon@chron.com


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; castledoctrine; crime; emergency911
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To: El Gato
12 gauge is a standard military round.

Yes, I think mostly used by the Marine Corps. They use the Wingmaster, the Winchester 1200 (which I never liked) and the Mossberg 500 and 590 I think.

141 posted on 11/18/2007 5:54:32 PM PST by WildcatClan (Vote for who the polls tell you! Thinking is hard and it isn't productive.)
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To: El Gato
They don't have attached garages where you live?

So you have a picture of the house , where's the link.

142 posted on 11/18/2007 6:36:52 PM PST by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: johnnycap
“How did he come out of the house with the gun, when he didn’t keep guns in the house?” there is a logical answer. The article says he kept the gun in his vehicle. He probably had an attached garage (which some would consider part of the house).

That's exactly what the article on a local (Houston) TV station's website said. He went to the garage and retrieved it out of the truck. An aerial photo of the neighborhood shows attached garages, along with pools in many yards, and moderately large lots. The houses on one side of the street back up to a creek or bayou.

143 posted on 11/18/2007 7:40:32 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: WildcatClan
I can foresee a kid doing something really stupid (the stupid stuff we have all done at one time) and losing their life because of it. I have seen too much personally from these old kooks who are armed, to be comfortable with this kind of latitude regarding lethal force. 12 Year olds shot dead because they were in someone’s yard. I have seen people disoriented and thinking someone stole something from them and then later they find it where they left it of course.

For the most part, the law only covers stopping a crime in progress. You can use less than deadly force to recover your property once the crime is no longer in progress, and of course you can defend yourself at any time.

But as far as a kid doing something stupid, yea that does happen. A few years ago, not long after I moved to San Antonio, which was in 1999, a kid, 14 IIRC, got himself killed while trying to steal some chickens. It was part of a gang initiation deal. Not that it matters to the law, but these weren't just any old chickens, but rather competition birds. The chicken owner felt bad about it, but the grand jury still returned a "no bill", because it was "theft during the nighttime". The kids sister held no ill will towards the defender either, she knew it was her little brother's fault that he ended up dead over "property".

144 posted on 11/18/2007 9:21:18 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: WildcatClan
It appears what Mr. Horn did was absolutely lawful, but I am not so sure what he did was right.

It also appears that what the two men were doing, was not only absolutely unlawful, it was wrong too. Don't want to get killed over property? Then don't go stealing it, especially not in Texas.

145 posted on 11/18/2007 9:23:17 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: muawiyah
Let’s see him ‘splain that one to his wife.

He lives with his daughter and granddaughter, with no mention of a wife. But if he has one, she likely knew about the shotgun. It's probably the daughter that doesn't approve of them in the house, but she too probably knew about the shotgun in the truck in the garage.

146 posted on 11/18/2007 9:26:31 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: WildcatClan
A sane and sober man hears that pump action work just once and he is no longer a threat. He has either soiled himself or he is gone. :)

If you were following along, you know he racked the slide while still inside the house, you could hear it on the audio recording. He racked the slide, told the dispatcher he'd done that (or confirmed that the sound was indeed that of a shotgun) and then went outside. After a short interval, you hear, "Move and you're dead", followed shortly by the "boom" click-clack "boom" click-clack, and a short interval of nothing followed by the third "boom" click-clack. Being as it was the middle of the day, the perps had sufficient opportunity to see that 3/4 inch hole in the end of the barrel, and decide not to move, instead they apparently rushed the guy.

147 posted on 11/18/2007 9:32:11 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: muawiyah
He's lucky the cops didn't shoot him.

By the time the police got there, he had talked to the dispatcher again, and was sitting on the ground, presumably not holding his shotgun. Why would the PPD shoot him?

Besides, up to this point we have only his story.

That and the audio tape, the white bag full of cash, and the broken glass of the break in and break out. They don't mention what condition the inside of the neighbors' house was, but I suspect the burglars were not neat about their business.

148 posted on 11/18/2007 9:38:05 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

Yes, I was following, if we heard him work the action outside, then they could have as well. I know at least one of them heard the action the second time. The third discharge is the one that would indicate at least one of them was running.

If they were rushing him, one of them would have likely got to him. 15 feet can be closed very quickly. He said, “I am not going to let them get away” and he didn’t. As I said before, a sane and sober man is not going to rush a riot gun. If there are more than one, they are going to get you at 15 feet. But, it’s roulette, neither of them knows which one will catch the blast and I am thinking neither is going to be eager to find out.


149 posted on 11/18/2007 9:53:31 PM PST by WildcatClan (Vote for who the polls tell you! Thinking is hard and it isn't productive.)
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To: muawiyah
Which raises a question ~ let's say you're correct and the shotgun was barely able to scare away quail and here he has shot and killed two guys ~ would you say that maybe he was a lot closer than 15 feet?

I've shot at quail and missed at slightly longer distances. Of course quail are small, fly pretty fast, and scare the snot out of you if you happen to flush an entire covey. (And I've shot at those at an appropriate range, and missed every one of 'em).

The thing about a shotgun is that at really close range, it makes one big hole, a little farther it makes a not quite so big hole surrounded by a bunch of little holes, still pretty close together. At much longer ranges there's lots of space between the pellets, enough for a quail to, and with larger shot, a pheasant or a duck, to fly through. I did shoot one pheasant, one of the last ones I ever shot with my Dad along, IIRC, that I hit with just one #6 pellet. In the head. Pure dumb luck that was, but he was still just as tasty. I've also seen people hit with shot at around 100 yards, and it didn't even penetrate their skin. Not that it didn't smart. Another time it didn't even chip the paint on the truck that my father in law, and a cousin in law were sitting in. (I was not the shooter, don't recall which of the cousin-in-law's sons or nephew was the shooter. The nephew grew up to do a tour in the Navy, and now is a member of a federal law enforcement agency, serving mostly overseas until recently.

So a shotgun makes a great home defense weapon, because it's deadly at close range, but unless you are really close to a wall, won't penetrate many layers of sheet rock, and won't go through brick or stone veneer exterior walls. Outside it's deadly range is quite short, especially if the gun has a very open choke, which most shotguns intended for defensive use, or police use, have. Of course the police are allowed to have 12 or 14 inch barrels but we peons have to settle for 18 and a smidgen.

So to answer your question, I find 15 entirely believable as within the deadly range of a shotgun, no matter what the load, even dove and quail loads. 45 feet, maybe. 100 feet, depends on the load, 100 yards, only if one is very unlucky and the shot is large. Much beyond that even large pellets don't travel.

At 15 feet the type of load hardly matters, but you have point fairly accurately, or you'll miss even a human sized target.

150 posted on 11/18/2007 9:58:36 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: WildcatClan
They use the Wingmaster, the Winchester 1200 (which I never liked) and the Mossberg 500 and 590 I think.

Army uses some of those as well. Plus they have thing they call the "master key", it's a 12 gauge pump, mounted in the manner of the M209 40mm grenade launcher. Very short barrel. Used more for breaching (taking out the lock or hinges), than room clearing, but will work in both roles, with different ammunition types.


151 posted on 11/18/2007 10:06:58 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: org.whodat
So you have a picture of the house , where's the link.

Saw it on Fox national news. Look at the aerial photo I linked to above. Or use your favorite mapping site. Address was in the 7400 block of Timberline in Pasadena Texas.

See video link at MyFoxHouston or direct to the . You'll see all the houses have attached garages, some or all with the openings onto the front of the houses.

152 posted on 11/18/2007 10:32:40 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: org.whodat
Sorry, the direct link didn’t come through, it’s a javascript thingie, so best just link from the page I linked above.
153 posted on 11/18/2007 10:34:39 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: org.whodat
Ok, if mr horn doesn’t keep his gun in the house and it was in his truck, then he went out side and got the gun before he called the police. Sort of says he was planning on kill the trash.

His truck may have been in the house. Have you ever heard of an attached garage. We have them in Texas, ya know.

I don't know what I would do in the same situation. Around here, we never go out of town that we don't ask a neighbor to keep and eye on the house. Of course we are a smaller town and the police would be here within minutes of a 911 call. It was taking police an awful long time to respond to his 911 call, IMHO. One of the many reasons I don't live in Houston.

154 posted on 11/18/2007 11:01:23 PM PST by Texas Mom (Two places you're always welcome - Church and Grandma's house.)
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To: org.whodat
Ok, if mr horn doesn’t keep his gun in the house and it was in his truck, then he went out side and got the gun before he called the police. Sort of says he was planning on kill the trash.

His truck may have been in the house. Have you ever heard of an attached garage. We have them in Texas, ya know.

I don't know what I would do in the same situation. Around here, we never go out of town that we don't ask a neighbor to keep and eye on the house. Of course we are a smaller town and the police would be here within minutes of a 911 call. It was taking police an awful long time to respond to his 911 call, IMHO. One of the many reasons I don't live in Houston.

155 posted on 11/18/2007 11:01:53 PM PST by Texas Mom (Two places you're always welcome - Church and Grandma's house.)
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To: El Gato

Which is why I referred to scaring quail, not hitting them.


156 posted on 11/19/2007 5:08:31 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Texas Mom
School was letting out ~ end of 7th period for the highschools. The cops were on traffic duty right then.

You can check the school schedules on the internet. I did.

157 posted on 11/19/2007 5:11:20 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: El Gato
Why don't you call up the neighbor and see.

Reports are, however, that he's in jail waiting on his buddies to bring him his bail money.

They're not coming.

158 posted on 11/19/2007 5:12:47 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

I didn’t quite understand who you were talking about in that reply. Is there more to the story that you’re aware of?


159 posted on 11/19/2007 5:07:52 PM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid

Thanks to the power of the internet there are a number of neighborhood stories on the net. Just a matter of looking them up. No sense tieing yourself down to just the MSM ~ not enough of them to cover everything.


160 posted on 11/19/2007 6:06:50 PM PST by muawiyah
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