Posted on 11/16/2007 10:13:07 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
EVANSVILLE, Indiana (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.
Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in a posting on the group's Web site.
The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal.
(Excerpt) Read more at politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com ...
That about to change because of this outrageous action.
I think gold is down the last few days because oil dropped.
I don’t know about the Ron Paul stuff, but the rest of their stuff has been in wide use world wide since about 1992.
I think that you’ve exchanged the cause and effect in this case. Gold dropped hours before oil dropped.
If those are pics of the actual coins, the feds might have a pretty good case. The coins say “USA” and “$20 dollars,” impling that they are official government currency. Plus, there is the implication that these coins can be used in lieu of the official currency.
Not true. The Constitution defines gold and silver as real money.
"Legal tender" is another thing entirely, and here we get into terminology and legal semantics. Legally speaking, "legal tender" = "forced tender". It's when a government says, "I, the government, am telling you that this piece of paper, although it is not made of precious metals (ie. real money) nor backed by precious metals, is as good as gold and silver specie. I say it is money, and it is to be used as money for all debts public and private. And that's the law, which I will back up with my police and military power."
For hard money advocates, who -- incidently -- have the Constitution to back them up, legal tender is an abomination. For fiat money advocates, legal tender is how business is done in the world.
The Gold and Silver Clause of the Constitution came out of a terrible mess that pretty much wrecked the Articles of Confederation. Our first national currency was the Continental Dollar, a piece of paper that was defined as legal tender and was supposed to be backed by one Spanish Milled Dollar each. Of course, the infant US didn't have enough Spanish Milled Dollars to back the currency, so it became a fiat currency. Patriotic Americans were supposed to accept Continental Dollars for commerce, and most did. However, many preferred to deal with the British Army because those guys paid in gold and silver, not paper.
Once the Revolution ended and British troops sailed home, the Continental Dollar was discounted and began to fail as a currency. Commerce collapsed and states beggared each other via tariffs to raise the money necessary to pay off their war debts. One of the core issues of Shays' Rebellion in Massachusetts was the issue of whether creditors could be forced to accept Continental Dollars in payment. With a weak Confederation government and no official coin of the realm, the Bank of North America collapsed and financial chaos reigned. The Constitutional Convention was the result.
The Constitution defined gold and silver as real money. The Coinage Act of 1792 set the relationship of gold and silver to the dollar, and standard coins of gold, silver and base metals were to be minted. "Legal tender" was something the Framers wanted to avoid, thanks to their recent experience with a fiat currency.
Either it is or it isn't.
If so, no foul, if not, fraud. Just that simple.
If there is no metal to back the paper, and they have failed to redeem even one (promissory) note (which is what the Federal Reserve Note started out as--"This note is legal tender for all debts public and private and is redeemable in lawful money at the U.S. Treasury or any Federal Reserve Bank" used to be on the notes) then they may well be in trouble.
If they are good to their word, and have not failed to redeem the notes for silver or gold, and are not in fact defrauding anyone, where is the crime?
there is no crime.
They are attempting to create a run on the Liberty to destroy them, and thereby, all others like them.
They’ve done this before with offshore banks, with only limited success. It’s despicable for the government of a supposedly free state to do this.
And it is. The assay can be done in less than 60 seconds if you have several coins; just weigh them dry, and drop them in a graduated cylinder of alcohol and read the change in volume. Simple!
Right. That's the reason they raided the Sunshine mint where they stored the gold and silver to back up their paper. I guess those folks who have the currency can't even redeem it courtesy of the federal government.
I have a 1951 $50 FRN that has that part on it “...and may be redeemed in lawful money...”
A buddy of mine does alot of numismatic stuff so goes to the bank regular to buy rolls of halves, etc.
The teller told him some kid came in and wanted to cash a coin - so they offered him face value for it, and he took it.
The bank was out one $50 FRN but the kid was out something like a 1922 Gold Eagle that he found in his grandads dresser drawer.
And this was fairly recent.
Kinda outrageous, imho.
We’re from the government, and we’re here to help...
thanks....real busy at work today...
Banks are kinda outrageous all the time. (read Wells Fargo's press release about mortgage defaults this morning)
Silver rounds come in many styles.
They will usually say “One Troy Ounce” .999
Many say “Silver Trade Unit”
But some do say ONE DOLLAR even though they are not minted by the treasury.
They never were illegal before, until now I guess.
Why would shutting these clowns down in any way slow the impending collapse?
"A HUGE RUNUP IN THE PRICE OF ALL COMMODITIES IS COMING, BECAUSE WE ARE KILLING THE DOLLAR, AND IT IS GOING TO GE MUCH WORSE!"
LOL!
Think about it.
You first.
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