Posted on 10/26/2007 5:10:37 PM PDT by WFTR
First, I don't believe in protecting anything because of what it "might" become. If a mass of cells might become a person but isn't a person, then that mass of egg cells does not have the rights of a person. The condor egg argument is irrelevant in most cases. No individual is going to have his or her life disrupted for nearly a year over most condor eggs. If a condor laid its eggs on private property in such a way that the property owner lost use of his home for a year, I'd advocate letting the owner dump the eggs and get back to his life. The fact that we don't do this for this property owners doesn't mean that we should put the same imposition on rape victims. These two wrongs would not make a right.
You said that you don't want to lump the argument around birth control pills with the argument around very early abortions and don't see why that connection is necessary. However, if we pass a human life amendment and define life as beginning at the moment of conception, then those birth control pills may be considered illegal. The argument will become complicated, but we can't avoid that complication if we're going to take a "legal rights begin at conception" approach to abortion.
Your approach to what you call "Tier 3" babies is a problem because you've put the responsibility for people's bad choices back on society and not on the people making those choices. If every woman who wanted an abortion could go live somewhere clean and safe for eight months and then not have to take care of the child, many people wouldn't bother to exercise any caution at all. If there is no cost to the people who made the bad choices that resulted in an unwanted pregnancy, then there will be no incentive for them to change behavior. In that case, our society would be swamped by these abandoned babies, and we'd have to spend every resource available to compensate for the irresponsibility of these people. For the rape victim, pregnant through no fault of her own, I support giving her as much help as possible to get through that time and carry the baby if that's what she chooses. For others, we must make them face the consequences of their own decisions.
Bill
I’ve always thought that women wanting to be “equal” with men, even those men that sleep around with no consequences were the ones that really pushed for abortion.
“I mean really, if we women are ever going to be equal with men, we can’t be getting saddled with a baby everytime we just wanted to get laid”
I actually heard that from one of my daughters’ friends a couple years ago. That girl was told in no uncertain terms that she was no longer welcome in my home. She was told that by my daughter.
I was so proud that day.
No, the government's job is not to force an individual to do what's healthiest for another individual or at least not harm the other individual. Many kids would be healthier if their parents made them exercise more, but I'm not going to put parents in jail because they aren't making their kids get enough exercise. Kids would be mentally healthier if their parents read to them, but I'm not going to put parents in jail for not spending enough time reading to their kids. The government doesn't exist to force people to do anything. The criminal justice system exists to punish people who have done harm to others. In the case of rape that results in pregnancy, the punishment should fall on the rapist, and neither the rape victim nor her doctor should be punished for how they handle the situation.
Bill
There are as many opinions on this one issue as there are people. I often wonder what teenagers would say if asked, “What if your mother had decided to have an abortion when she found out she was pregnant with you?” I do not personally believe in abortion unless it is because of rape, incest or of extreme danger to mother. Do I have the right to interject my beliefs directly on someone else versus who will stand up for the unborn child? Who is going to protect this then potentially unwanted child for the rest of their life? What I most get upset about is the woman who says, “Well, it’s my body and I will do as I please!”, never seeming to consider for a moment that one of the truly wonderful things about their body is that it is capable of being a host for another birth. Moral standards, conduct and individual’s opinion of their personal responsibility have changed. A politician’s stance on the issue of abortion often reveals a lot more about them than just their view of this one issue. Although very, very extreme, I do feel that fathers who refuse to support an out-of-wedlock baby should undergo a vasectomy and mother’s who opt out of pregnancy should be able to obtain safe affordable sterilization.
Well, when or if we are to return to a time when abortion is made illegal, then I suppose you and others who are similarly minded can work to enact laws that put abortive mothers in prison.
It's been a good exchange, thanks, Bill. Take care.
If a woman does not want to be pregnant, I wonder if there was a way that a baby could safely be removed and “adopted” in another mother, if women considering abortion would choose to do so.
I am listening to almost 70 years of living.
THere was no uproar when women died. It was kept very quiet. But if abortion is criminalized and people who perform them are made felons as some suggest, some suggest murder charges, I say it is irrational to think that a woman who consents is not complicit in the very same crime and deserves the very same penalty. If that is the wish of the prolifers, then there will be an uproar.
To say that the person who performs an abortion is a criminal is to say the very same thingabout the person who requests it and consents to it. And therein is the problem with criminalizing abortion.
I have never read NRal propaganda. I do not listen to the media. But I am pointing out what I see as the problem with those who would outlaw and criminalize abortion.
Do you deny that women are complicit in abortion?Do you think abortion providers should be felons? Why would you excuse women. If they hire a hit man to kill their husbands, would you excuse them? Of course not.
This is the way this kind of criminalizing leads,,I am pointing that out to you.
But some would outlaw under any circumstances. Where the line is drawn has always been the issue for the great majority of people.
ANd the question of who is the criminal in what would be, if the prolife extremists have their way, an illegal abortion.
I think most women who seek abotions are in distress. If, when, abortion is illegal we still need to be there to help these mothers and offer support. We can never just rub our hands and say "ok. Done". People who take advantage of their situations either for agenda or money should be arrested though IMO.
No, you are trying to trap me, because you are some( what) pro-choice? I would assume; I will not fall for it:
I know that you dont really advocate the jailing of women that go to have abortions. My position is perfectly consistent since I would charge the person who “holds the weapon” and acutally carries out the abortion for MURDER. The woman may not know what she is doing (since the issue has been clouded by your side..thanks alot..), also even if so, maybe she deserves a lesser crime, but The abortionist is the actual killer.
Also it (being an abortion doctor): “Do no harm” IS against the hypocratic OATH!~
Mayhaps if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, she might keep her thighs in an upright and locked position?
“But some would outlaw under any circumstances.”
You know mine, and I think that most reasonable people would agree to a line similar to it.
“ANd the question of who is the criminal...”
You already got it handed to ya on that issue upthread (IMO) and I am not going to rehash it with you except to say that IMO, it ought to be the abortionist committing the murder that does the time.
People make mistakes. Babies aren’t a mistake though. I agree that teaching abstinence is wise but does a girl that is pregnant and doesn’t know what to do , really need someone telling her she should have not have had sex?
Further victimize? Let's be clear, it is the rapist alone who victimizes--he invaded the woman's body and his crime is what forces her to bear a child. The mother in such circumstance is deserving of our sympathy, prayers and support; she should be cared for, loved, and nurtured to the fullest possible extent. In the end, she could opt for adoption.
Interesting people around here.
Message received: You're the voice of rational morality surrounded by irrational zealots.
I agree that teaching abstinence is wise but does a girl that is pregnant and doesn’t know what to do , really need someone telling her she should have not have had sex?
Apparantly.
“Further victimize? Let’s be clear, it is the rapist alone who victimizes—he invaded the woman’s body and his crime is what forces her to bear a child.”
No, the rapist forced her to become pregnant. People such as yourself would use the force of law to force her to remain that way.
“Message received: You’re the voice of rational morality surrounded by irrational zealots.”
If you are going to tell me that a rape victim deserves to be further victimized by us to suit our religious sensibilities, then I have found my irrational zealot.
Yeah, us zealots who actually believe that life begins at conception, is worthy of protection by law and that deliberately killing an unborn child is always an intrinsically evil act. (Given you invoke the Lord's name in your tag, you should know that's been the consistent teaching of Christianity since it's very foundation, not to mention the law of Moses, Ex. 21:22–24).)
Let the record show that you support the killing of the unborn when the circumstances of the conception are just too inconvenient, too messy, too troublesome to your own sense of decency. Some human life is simply not worthy of protection in your eyes. Let the record show that you believe it's a morally superior position to allow the destruction a totally innocent human life rather than a mother would be "forced" into the "horror" of having to carry an innocent child for 9 months. Yes, continue to comfort yourself with the smug notion that you are quite superior to us extremists, that you are the one who is truly "pro-life".
You and I are done here.
Abortion is wrong, no matter what.
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