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Gun bill supported by Va. Tech families hits snag in Senate
wdbj7.com ^ | October 16, 2007 | NA

Posted on 10/17/2007 3:51:48 PM PDT by neverdem

Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) - A gun-control bill that advocates say could have prevented the April killings of 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus has hit a roadblock in the Senate.

The measure would provide money to states to ensure that they properly update the national database of those prohibited to purchase weapons. It has support from both handgun control groups and the National Rifle Association but Democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York says his colleague Republican Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, has derailed any hopes of quick passage.

Under federal law, people with criminal records and those who have been judged mentally defective are generally barred from purchasing weapons, and their names are placed in a database.

Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech before committing suicide, had been deemed mentally defective and should have been in the database. But Virginia authorities never added Cho's name. He bought two guns in the weeks before the killings.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: 110th; 2ndamendment; backgroundcheck; banglist; mentalillness; rkba; secondamendment; vatech; virginiatech
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To: Brilliant
Anyone who defends the right of insane people to have guns is just going to end up making a fool of himself.

Anyone who thinks career politicians and BATFE hacks should make the determination on who is "sane" should have their head checked as well...

61 posted on 10/18/2007 5:58:02 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: AppyPappy
(sarc)You mean people bent on using firearms in crimes might ignore gun laws? Oh heavens... maybe we need another law...(/sarc)

It isn't crazy people that is the problem here. It's career politicians and BATFE thugs trying to justify their existence by creating as many classes of "criminals" as possible. With your average citizen in full possession of their RKBA, criminals and nutcases tend to "Darwin out" as we shoot them.

62 posted on 10/18/2007 6:01:01 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Dead Corpse

It wasn’t that many years ago that we had institutions for these folks. I don’t mind resurrecting that old system. Better than having them on the street. And the consequences of making a mistake in those days were a whole lot greater than merely preventing someone from having a gun.


63 posted on 10/18/2007 6:02:53 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant
Insane is one thing. Having a time in your life when you need a break is another. I do not trust the Government with my rights. I defend them vigorously at all time. The Feds can barely deliver Social Security checks. Do you want them taking away your rights because of a clerical error? What happens when they accidentally release a list that contains your name? These programs are massive failures where ever they are used and you want to make it bigger? Please.

The bill will not pass in it's current form. it may even die.

64 posted on 10/18/2007 6:04:16 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Do you want to be right or successful!)
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To: Brilliant

So you would still be ok with the BATFE determining who is “mentally capable” of firearms ownership? Remember: the BATFE and this legislation sets a different standard for defining terms than the medical community does.


65 posted on 10/18/2007 6:08:22 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: mad_as_he$$
Worse, what happens when they de-fund the office that would be researching your adjudication to clear your record. Somewhat similar to the closing of the NFA registry. A simple Executive Order would be all it would take.

That President Bush hasn't used EO's to roll back some of Clinton's craptastic EO's should raise a flag as well...

66 posted on 10/18/2007 6:12:09 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Dead Corpse; Brilliant
Very poorly written bill that had NO public hearings in the House.
67 posted on 10/18/2007 6:50:24 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Do you want to be right or successful!)
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To: Brilliant
Anyone who defends the right of insane people to have guns is just going to end up making a fool of himself.

No one is defending the right of insane people to have guns. Read the text of the law. It applies to a much broader group than insane people.

68 posted on 10/18/2007 8:17:35 AM PDT by Texas Federalist (Fred!)
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To: Dead Corpse

Personally, I’d prefer to put them in institutions, where they would not have firearms.


69 posted on 10/18/2007 8:33:45 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: Dead Corpse
Ok... now point out where this purposed law defines which type of doctors can make this disqualifying determination. If it doesn't list them, then some doofus with a Universal Life Church "doctorate" in comparative theology could make a mental health determination and get you disqualified from owning firearms.

The federal judge recognized the validity of a two physician commitment. They need to be physicians, either MD, a doc practicing allopathic medicine, or DO, a doc practicing osteopathic medicine. A crude way to describe the latter is a combination of MD & chiropractor.

70 posted on 10/18/2007 9:13:25 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem
Federal judge yes. We aren't talking about current Federal law. We are talking about how Congress and the BATFE will be applying the NEW standard set forth in this Bill. The new legislation doesn't define "doctor", nor does the BATFE regulations.

Give 'em an inch, and they'll burn your church down with you and your congregation still inside it.

71 posted on 10/18/2007 9:29:28 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Dead Corpse
Federal judge yes. We aren't talking about current Federal law.

I'm describing precedent according to this analysis. Two physicians are sufficient for adjudication.

New U.S. Senator opposing H.R. 2640, and a detailed rebuttal of the NRA's defense of gun control

72 posted on 10/18/2007 9:44:19 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: Dead Corpse

What I wanted to convey was that precedent doesn’t give you the benefit of a judge. It’s just the word of 2 docs.


73 posted on 10/18/2007 9:52:06 AM PDT by neverdem (Call talk radio. We need a Constitutional Amendment for Congressional term limits. Let's Roll!)
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To: neverdem
Keep reading...

Judicial review of the commitment was not a requirement.

This means the BATFE can use whatever doctors they want and still screw you for it. If it isn't in the legislation, the definition will be expanded beyond the intent.

74 posted on 10/18/2007 10:14:54 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: neverdem

This legislation should not exist. Period. Coming up with legislation regarding mental health is not listed in Art 1 Sec 8.


75 posted on 10/18/2007 10:16:06 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
The only problem is that pretty much any medical doctor or counselor could declare pretty much anyone to be a “mental defective” and there is no real legal recourse.

That is scary...and with no due process of law or appeal process, they might as well declare any freedom-loving person crazy and take their guns away. Why can't the NRA see that?

76 posted on 10/18/2007 12:17:41 PM PDT by pray4liberty (Watch and pray.)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Angel Shamaya is his new name. Reportedly, he was "Scott McReynolds" before that.
77 posted on 10/18/2007 1:03:03 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring

That’s a stretch from one end to another. Scott McReynolds to Angel Shamaya. I would love to hear the story behind that one.


78 posted on 10/18/2007 2:56:02 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
As I understand it, this bill will allow a “board, commission, or pyschiatrist” to judge you as a mental defective, and then you are toast.

Good point. I fear gun laws that use the existance of even an expired restraining order as a basis for denying ownership. It's too easy for a vengeful ex to get one based on absolutely no merit.

How about the idea of allowing the accused to challenge the diagnosis in court, with damages allowed for unreasonable defamation? Surely, a truly mentally defective person might not even contest the issue, and if they did, a court might make its own independent findings.

79 posted on 10/18/2007 3:14:22 PM PDT by hunter112 (Change will happen when very good men are forced to do very bad things.)
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To: hunter112
How about the idea of allowing the accused to challenge the diagnosis in court,

Yikes! You're asking: "How about letting the courts get involved with medical diagnoses?" PLEASE keep the government OUT of medical diagnoses!

Once again, it's the lawyers (and those who file ridiculously and those who award ridiculously) who have trashed our lives pretty badly. Physicians are scared to use their best judgment because of the fear of a lawsuit. They often find that they must err on the side of "caution," in case one of their patients does go off the deep end. And it has gotten to the point where few Americans are even going into psychiatry anymore--it's just not worth it. So we have MANY non-native psychiatrists to fill the gap.

Now, if these were pathologists, peering at microscope slides, then fine. But mental illness is culturally defined (e.g., a shaman might be "visionary" or "schizophrenic," depending on where he is), and do you think that a non-native psychiatrist is going to understand the cultural aspects of a patient's condition as well as an American, even if he's just as good medically?

We've really messed up things badly, but the answer isn't to get the government involved even more, IMHO.

80 posted on 10/18/2007 3:56:01 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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