I hope they are sending the author of the Bill!
Adam Schiff (D-CA) praised the House Foreign Affairs Committee’s passage of a resolution he authored recognizing and commemorating the Armenian Genocide.
Posted on 10/14/2007 5:13:14 PM PDT by blam
US tries to halt Turkey attack
Diplomats fly to Ankara to stop military move against Iraqi Kurds after 'genocide' resolution
Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday October 14, 2007
The Observer (UK)
Senior US officials were engaged last night in last-ditch efforts to persuade Turkey not to launch a major military incursion into Iraqi Kurdistan to target armed separatists. A team was diverted from a mission to Russia to make an unscheduled stop in Ankara yesterday. Against the background of the escalating diplomatic row between Turkey and the US over a congressional resolution that branded as 'genocide' massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915, US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, revealed she had personally urged Turkey to refrain from any major military operation in northern Iraq. The row between the two Nato allies comes against the dangerous background of a threat by the Turkish parliament to approve this week a 'hot pursuit' of the Kurdish separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party, the PKK, across the border into northern Iraq.
The threat of military action came after last Sunday's killing by the PKK of 13 Turkish soldiers in an ambush in Sirnak province, close to the Iraqi border. 'I urged restraint,' said Rice, on a visit to Moscow, acknowledging 'a difficult time' between the two countries as she described her telephone conversations with Turkey's President Abdullah Gul, its Prime Minister and foreign minister.
'It's a difficult time for the relationship,' Rice said. 'We just thought it was a very good idea for two senior officials to go and talk to the Turks and have reassurance to the Turks that we really value this relationship.' Rice said that in her conversation with the Turks 'they were dismayed' by the congressional resolution. 'The Turkish government, I think,
(Excerpt) Read more at observer.guardian.co.uk ...
In what era, recently, or ancient?
Aren't Kurds of Turkmen origin? And also Armenian Kurds?
Thank you for the link. I bookmarked it. The hour is late and I have to read it first before I can respond and I can't do that until tomorrow. I'll come back to this thread and ping you to my answer if you don't mind.
Thanks for the polite discussion.
And I thank you.
Goodnight.
I hope they are sending the author of the Bill!
Adam Schiff (D-CA) praised the House Foreign Affairs Committee’s passage of a resolution he authored recognizing and commemorating the Armenian Genocide.
No need to respond.
It was FYI and FMI. Lots of good info, it looks like that can 'splain a lot of future actions in that area of the world.
You know why he submitted it right? People think these isolated pockets of until relatively recently foreign nationals don’t cause that much problem for us. Here’s an instance where they have made a problematic war just that much more difficult because they demanded action from their representative, that he should have declined to execute at this time.
Imagine Mexican terrorists from Mexico routinely coming in to the U.S. and bombing and killing hundreds of American civilians and soldiers, and Mexico doing nothing to put a stop to it? How would you want the U.S. to respond? At what point do you say - enough is enough?
***Just read the news every day, it happens all the time with illegal aliens killing, raping, wounding, robbing Americans citizens. How I would want the US to respond is by building a fence and rounding up the illegal aliens, deporting them back to, ahem, their OWN country. Mexicans HAVE their own country. It’s time the Kurds had theirs.
I don't see an easy way out of this situation.
I am quite sensitive to the claims of folks that Islam is very problematic. It does seem to me that some of these issues are more complex than 'Islam is problematic, so Islamic aherents must always be wrong'.
What's your take on the dynamics concerning Turkey and the Kurdish region inside Iraq?
I do recall news items of the Turkoman people being short-changed in representation in the new government.
Besides there are two pages of footnotes so I am not concerned that a Turk official wrote the article.
I have been aware that Kirkuk was a volatile issue for Ankara, now I know why it's that explosive.
If 17th or 18th century colonies of New England settlers had relocated to what is now Mexico and they were treated like the Turkoman people I suspect we'd be prepared to intervene if matters worsened.
I have been surprised several times over the last week, as more information became available.
There is a real flood of anti-Islamic sentiment floating around these days. I’ve engaged in it myself to a certain degree. I do keep trying to yank myself back to reality once in a while, to look at things more objectively.
Like I said, I do think Islam is very problematic. That doesn’t excuse us for not looking at issues objectively though. We can’t blame them for being upset about things, if we would more or less act as they have if we were in their shoes.
I agree with your Mexico analogy. I think you’ve made just the right argument considering.
I agree with blam’s assessment.
Kurds don’t fear the Turks
tribune-review | betsy hiel
Posted on 10/14/2007 7:12:31 AM EDT by LonesomeHawk
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1911005/posts
No, the voters turned to the Dhimmicrats, or didn’t show up on election day.
Don't forget the dozen or so misguided FReepers who are siding with the RATs on this resolution. I'm sure it's tough if one is of Armenian descent, but this is NOT the right time for this crap.
Turkey is also a huge ally of Israel. Turkey permitted Israel's recent attack on the Syrian nuclear facilities from its soil. That included aircraft, ground troops and intelligence agents.
Believe it or not so do many Turks.
The Army has had to intervene five? times to save the constitutional democratic republic from Islamists. It's the their duty and as far as I can learn the military still routinely purge Islamists and Islamists sympathizers from the ranks.
I'm off to bed, thanks for the pleasant conversation.
Within 10-20 years we will be...on our Southern border.
That’s an intereting observation. It doesn’t surprise me though. Folks think every nation with an Islamic presence is necessarily a radical state. That just isn’t so. How much it is, is hard to guage at times though. Turkey has not been one of the rabid bad states in the last five or so decades. You can’t really explain that to folks though. They won’t accept it.
Thank you too. Good night.
And the German government kidnapped the 14-year old daughter of Christian homeschoolers--a repulsive violation of civil rights. Should we cut off relations with Germany?
You people need to get real. To compare Turkey with Iran is simply ludicrous. Turkey's constitution prohibits an Islamic Republic, and the army is sworn to uphold a secular government. Yes it is true times are changing, and Turkey may be headed for a civil war over this in the next 10-20 years. But right now they are a strong ally of both the U.S. and Israel, and pissing them off now only gives strength to the Islamist parties there, and drives them away at a time when we need all the help we can get.
The key problem is that you Americans still have not understood that Iraq is irrelevant. To provoke the Turks would be extremely dumb. The by far biggest players in the area are the Turks and the Iranians. Turkey is at the crossroads in the moment. They have to decide between two opportunities:
1. integrate into Europe if the old continent gives them the chance to join both economically and culturally
or
2. they form together with the Iranians a economic and political bloc that can do trade with the ChiComs and the Russians.
I am sure that most Turks would prefer the first suggestion. Another inconsiderate intervention of America could take them this possibility and would drive them into the Iranian dungeon without any need.
Iraqis and their country are completely irrelevant in this "big" game. Because the Turks have problems with Kurdish terrorists since many decades they will do anything to get this problem under their control. They will not consider American interests, since the Kurdish treat is simply too dangerous to them for understandable reasons. They denied a US-attack from their soil because of that. If Americans are silly enough to shelter PKK-terrorists they have to deal with the consequences.
It is nothing new that the Turks rule over a excellent NATO Army with a combined troop strength of 1,054,750 soldiers. The second largest army in NATO anyway. In sharp difference to Iraq, Iran, Syria or whatever the Turks have big, modern and powerful forces that are easily able to match everything the US has in this area. In Iraq America had to deal with a few demoralized soldiers that were unwilling to fight and badly equipped (old T-72s, Russian outdated ordonance, a few patrol boats and Mig-15s, MiG-21s, MiG-27s), if the US forces should engage the Turks they would meet beside really gung-ho and well educated Turkish manpower, lots of their own technology (up-to-date block 50 F-16 i.e.) and top of the line European stuff like new Leopard IIs, wolfpacks of U-209 subs (which would cost the US-forces probably their first carrier-groups since WWII then), MEKO-frigates etc. etc. etc.. This is no Russian junk, this is really the best that can be bought on western weapon markets. Furthermore it is likely that the European allies of America will not follow the US in a non-defensive war against their NATO-ally Turkey. You should not forget that many countries in Europe have between 3 to 4% Turks among their population and that the links between Turkey and Europe are quite close in the meantime. Nearly all Germans i.e. have been to Turkey for holidays in the meantime. They like the country and the people. In difference to the wide-spread Blah-Blah in American media about "Eurarabia" the "German" Turks and the native Germans have usually a good relationship in the meantime. Therefore you can bet that most of Europe would not support a US-war against the Turks. It is for sure not funny to make a full scale war in the ME without the Ramstein AFB, without the German infrastructure but with a closed European airspace.
A independent "Kurdistan" will never emerge due to the power structure in the ME. Turkey and the Iranians do not want it and America is for sure not in the situation to push this through. Being a superpower does not mean that the US have no logical limits. The Turks could only be finished with nukes and I doubt that such is in the interest of America. Therefore the US politics is well advised in either offer Turkey their assistance in hunting and rounding up Kurdish terrorists or in leaving the area until the Turks finished their job.
They have their own autonomous region in Iraq. Not having their own nation doesn’t make it acceptable for Iraqi Kurdish terrorists to routinely sneak into Turkey to murder Turkish citizens.
As for the analogy with U.S. and Mexico - if organized terrorist groups from Mexico were routinely coming to America to bomb and murder American citizens with Mexico enabling them, I’d want the U.S. to do a lot more than sit around building a fence - I’d want them to go into Mexico and root out the terrorist groups and take care of them for good.
What has that to do with anything here???? The majority of the Kurds have built a state that is at peace and getting prosperous. PPK is a violent and ambitious small minority. If the Turks could/would discriminate here, a Turkish incursion might even be useful but if the Turkish army goes into Kurdistan, the Kurds, all of them, will defend their state and the nonCommies, our friends will bear the brunt of it. We can’t very well stand aside and let the Kurdish statelet be dismantled by the Turkish army and that could change the nature of this war radically, as we will have to take on the major non US bulwark against Persian conquest of the whole ME.
Thanks for your response. The only other time I got a detailed response was from a Turk who obviously was so blinded in his bigotry towards Kurds that he could not reason coherently.
Iraqis and their country are completely irrelevant in this “big” game.
***I disagree on a strategic level, because we have so many forces there in Iraq and we could free up those forces for spreading democracy in the region.
Because the Turks have problems with Kurdish terrorists since many decades they will do anything to get this problem under their control. They will not consider American interests, since the Kurdish treat is simply too dangerous to them for understandable reasons.
***I don’t consider this an “American” interest thing. I consider this a “democratic republic” interest thing. It would be utterly suitable to trade the PKK terrorists to Turkey for Kurdish Autonomy in eastern Turkey. The only folks left in the region would be Kurds in their own country, and the PKK jerks would be handed over to Turkey to do with as they see fit. That has nothing to do with Americanism, that’s a pro-democracy, pro-indiginous autonomy approach to the region.
They denied a US-attack from their soil because of that. If Americans are silly enough to shelter PKK-terrorists they have to deal with the consequences.
***That simply appears to be an excuse. I don’t buy it and I wouldn’t be surprised if our foreign policy folks in the Bush Admin don’t buy it.
—snip supporting details —
Furthermore it is likely that the European allies of America will not follow the US in a non-defensive war against their NATO-ally Turkey.
***Then there’s nothing to worry about. If Turkey attacks the Kurds in Iraq, it will be a DEFENSIVe war against Turkey, not a “non-defensive” one.
You should not forget that many countries in Europe have between 3 to 4% Turks among their population and that the links between Turkey and Europe are quite close in the meantime.
***This doesn’t show up as a significant consideration to me. You can say that about any nationality — 3 to 4% of them are in any country in Europe.
Nearly all Germans i.e. have been to Turkey for holidays in the meantime. They like the country and the people.
***And they would continue to do so after a Kurdish-Turkish conflagration. But Turkey would be a smaller country.
In difference to the wide-spread Blah-Blah in American media about “Eurarabia” the “German” Turks and the native Germans have usually a good relationship in the meantime. Therefore you can bet that most of Europe would not support a US-war against the Turks.
***Most of Europe seems to not support the war in Iraq, so this is nothing new. Europeans all have independent democracies, so they might feel chummy with a new independent democratic Kurdistan, especially if the Kurds hand over PKK operatives.
It is for sure not funny to make a full scale war in the ME without the Ramstein AFB, without the German infrastructure but with a closed European airspace.
***An interesting strategic consideration. I agree it wouldn’t be funny but it could be possible. Americans are pretty gung-ho for helping indigenous peoples form an independent democracy.
A independent “Kurdistan” will never emerge due to the power structure in the ME.
***I’ll keep that crystal ball analysis in the forefront of my mind.
Turkey and the Iranians do not want it and America is for sure not in the situation to push this through.
***I disagree. I think we are in the position. But it wouldn’t be a push, more like a pull. The Kurds want democracy and autonomy and it is the right thing for them in Iraqi Kurdistan & Iranian Kurdistan. We’ll certainly help them with those 2 areas. When it comes to Turkish Kurdistan, we got trouble. I think Americans and Europeans would stand behind an indigenous, democratic people seeking independence rather than a bullying minority. I suppose it would remain to be seen.
Being a superpower does not mean that the US have no logical limits. The Turks could only be finished with nukes and I doubt that such is in the interest of America.
***The same was said about Iraq. There’s no need to “finish” the Turks, just get them to back off and give some local autonomy to an indigenous people.
Therefore the US politics is well advised in either offer Turkey their assistance in hunting and rounding up Kurdish terrorists or in leaving the area until the Turks finished their job.
***Spoken like a Turk whose blind hatred of Kurds cannot be hidden. Is that the case here?
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