A Mormon in the Oval Office?

Washington Post ^ | October 4, 2007 | Robert Novak

[greyfoxx39]

When Mitt Romney appeared last week (via closed circuit from California) before the Council of Retired Chief Executives meeting in Washington, he faced kindred souls: rich Republicans who had managed big enterprises. Yet the second question from the audience was whether Romney's Mormon faith was hurting his quest for the Republican presidential nomination. He replied that about the only people who brought up his religion were members of the media, an answer that simply is untrue.

Romney is asked about Mormonism wherever he goes. In my travels, I find his religious preference cited everywhere as the source of opposition to his candidacy. His response to the former chief executives that only reporters care about this issue sounded like a politician's tired evasion. Romney was either too obtuse to appreciate his problem or was stalling because he had not determined how to deal with it. Contact with his advisers indicates that it's the latter.

[TChris]

For all those who want to know what Mormons really believe... (cue scary music)

...you can freely visit their web site.

The scriptures used by the Mormon Church, as well as their entire curriculum, are open for anyone to see.

LDS Teaching Materials

Of course, it's always a lot more dramatic if you imagine that there's lots of scary stuff being carefully hidden away. Too bad that's all imagined.

[MHGinTN]

You're right, it isn't hidden away, I've found a mountain of the stuff. Like the following lifted straight out of Joseph Smith's 'translation' of the King James Bible:

Online copy of the JST: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/default.htm ***********

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION Fabrications … (to the King James Bible! From LDS source http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/10 ; Note, the fabricated portions are italicized; Smith started with KJV text and added for his purposes, to fabricate prophesies of himself and his works of Mormonism ‘scriptures‘.

GENESIS 50: 24-38
Moses, Aaron, and Joseph Smith were all named in this prophecy of Joseph in Egypt. Also, Joseph prophesied that the Book of Mormon would become a companion to the record of Judah.

24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die, and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of my loins, the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet; (not the Messiah who is called Shilo;) and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage.

25 And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off, and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord, when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power; and shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom.

26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.

28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.

29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him who I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son.

30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;

31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.

33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

34 And the Lord sware unto Joseph that he would preserve his seed forever, saying, I will raise up Moses, and a rod shall be in his hand, and he shall gather together my people, and he shall lead them as a flock, and he shall smite the waters of the Red Sea with his rod.

35 And he shall have judgment, and shall write the word of the Lord. And he shall not speak many words, for I will write unto him my law by the finger of mine own hand. And I will make a spokesman for him, and his name shall be called Aaron.

36 And it shall be done unto thee in the last days also, even as I have sworn. Therefore, Joseph said unto his brethren, God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land, unto the land which he sware unto Abraham, and unto Isaac, and to Jacob.

37 And Joseph confirmed many other things unto his brethren, and took an oath of the children of Israel, saying unto them, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

38 So Joseph died when he was an hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and they put him in a coffin in Egypt; and he was kept from burial by the children of Israel, that he might be carried up and laid in the sepulchre with his father. And thus they remembered the oath which they sware unto him.

As anyone can readily see, Joe Smith fabricated a huge addition to this chapter ending in Genesis. Would one of you so ‘scholarly’ Mormonism Apologists like to tell us from whence Joe translated this long addition to Genesis? What text did he consult, or did he just ‘hear it from God and write it down for your edification … which edification you deem so secret that you do not tout it? Technically, is this Smithism ‘prophecy’ or edification for the confused, as if this is a ‘better translation‘?

[MHGinTN]

For reference, I’m currently studying the Sepyuagint, which has Genesis ending at the 23rd verse of chapter 50. None of Smith’s fabrications are even hinted at in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew text dating to the third century BC. And his additions to Genesis are but a small portion of his ‘added’ bible.

[MHGinTN]

Make that ‘Septuagint’ (the LXX)

[TChris]

As anyone can readily see, Joe Smith fabricated a huge addition to this chapter ending in Genesis.

If Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, then indeed, everything he wrote or did was a fraud, not just his translation work of the KJV. But if Joseph Smith was a prophet, working under the divine direction of God, then he had the ability and the authority to make corrections and restorations to the Bible.

If God wanted to correct mistakes in our current translation of the Bible, how do you propose He should do so?

[MHGinTN]

“If Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet, then indeed, everything he wrote or did was a fraud ...” Friend, consider the obverse of that assertion. You have been shown numerous examples of Joseph Smith being wrong, a flawed man, a liar to his congregation regarding his multiple wives, his false translation of an Egyptian funerary document, etc. Yet you choose to believe this man was a prophet where you have been told to apply that title and where not to apply that title. Consider your own words, TC. The Book of Mormon contains whole passages lifted from the Bible (oddly enough, the Masoretic version, not the more accurate and older Septuagint Bible with which we may check the differing texts), so it is not entirely a work of fiction internally. But as a whole document it is a fabrication by someone or something, because what is claimed reagrding these people in the story has zero proof in genetics and archaeology ... and people have looked for proof, really hard, because they wanted to prove the book true. It isn’t true, it’s a novel.

[TChris]

The Book of Mormon contains whole passages lifted from the Bible (oddly enough, the Masoretic version, not the more accurate and older Septuagint Bible with which we may check the differing texts), so it is not entirely a work of fiction internally. But as a whole document it is a fabrication by someone or something, because what is claimed reagrding these people in the story has zero proof in genetics and archaeology ... and people have looked for proof, really hard, because they wanted to prove the book true. It isn’t true, it’s a novel.

Yeah, never mind all that busy-work going on in the area of Ancient Mormon Studies. They even have their own website, devoted to all that "zero proof".

Neal A Maxwell Institute for Religious Studies

All the hoopla over Joseph Smith's translation of the Egyptian hieroglyphics has already been asked and answered. You just keep repeating the same tired accusations.

Was the Book of Abraham Disproved?

The Book of Abraham Project

Hypocaphalus in "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar Critically Examined with Joseph Smith Hypocephalus

[MHGinTN]

Because your immortal soul is so precious, allow me to post to you a simple example of how proofing texts and thus sources for texts is done (I found this while reading about the Septuagint). This one will be of interest to Mormons because it addresses the word 'almah' (alma) which recently gave some Mormons pleasure to see a use of this word in the translations being done of the Dead Sea.

One of the most famous examples of how the Jews attacked the Greek Septuagint regarded the word virgin. The particular verse in question is Isaiah 7:14, which reads in the Greek Septuagint:

 

“Therefore, the Master Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will conceive in the womb, and will bring forth a Son, and you will call His Name Emmanuel.”

 

In the Greek, the word for virgin is parthenos, and it literally means a virgin. In the Masoretic Text, however, the word is almah which means a young girl. The usual Hebrew word for virgin, and the word in every case translated virgin in the Revised Version, is bethuwlah. This verse is quoted from Isaiah in the Christian Scriptures in Matthew 1:23. The Jews attacked the Septuagint from the beginning because they claimed that it had been corrupted by the Christians and that the Christians changed the word in the Septuagint to read virgin instead of young woman so that it would support the reading in Matthew. Of course, the Edomite Jews did not believe that Jesus was the true Messiah; this was why they were attacking the Septuagint. The Jews are the ones who changed the Hebrew, replacing the word virgin with young woman. The early motive of the Edomite Jews was to destroy Christianity, not just the Septuagint. But the Christians did not give in, so the Jews changed their strategy. They instead decided to corrupt the Old Testament and gain control of the Christians by giving them a corrupted Old Testament.

 

By the 3rd century they began collecting every Hebrew manuscript they could, and this was easy to do because the Christians used the Greek Septuagint and cared little for the Hebrew. They then began revising the Hebrew documents to support their Jewish contentions. By the time of Jerome, they began taking the soft approach and gave Jerome their new Hebrew for him to use in his translation. But, as we said before, the Christians at first rejected the Vulgate. So the Jews continued working on their text. From the 1st century to the middle of the 5th century, they called themselves Talmudists; from the 5th century to the completion of their text in the 10th-11th centuries, they called themselves Masoretes.

[MHGinTN]

In case the excerpt wasn't clear, in the Septuagint, Is 7:14 has 'parthenos', virgin, thus we may be sure it was translated properly since the Septuagint --Hebrew to Greek translation-- was made in the third century BC from Hebrew texts available at that time and the Hebrew word for virign was in the text the translators used. [I wonder what word will be in the B of M for Is7:14 ?]

[MHGinTN]

Ping, if you’re so inclined.

[LeGrande]

You need to provide your definition of God. You seem to agree that he isn’t omniscient, what other limitations does he have?

[Terirem]

By the 3rd century they began collecting every Hebrew manuscript they could, and this was easy to do because the Christians used the Greek Septuagint and cared little for the Hebrew. They then began revising the Hebrew documents to support their Jewish contentions.

In seems that way. Greek Septuagint is older than the Masoretic Text and thus closer to the original source. That is history 101 - the older the tect the more accurate the text. The oldest Aramaic and Hebrew texts we have support the Greek Septuagint.

[MHGinTN]

Ping, if you’re so inclined on this subject.

[restornu]

You got nothing as I watch you groping...

Deut. 28:
29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

Job 5:
14 They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night.

Job 12:
25 They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

[DanielLongo]

"# This report has been excerpted and/or adapted from two sources: (1) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Rick Branch (Watchman Fellowship Profile, 1993); and (2) Examining & Exposing Cultic & Occultic Movements, Jack Sin, "What is Wrong with Mormonism," April 2000, pp. 21-25."

LOL. These are your sources? That's like expecting someone to believe the Washington Post's biography of Richard Nixon.

[FastCoyote]

“You need to provide your definition of God. You seem to agree that he isn’t omniscient, what other limitations does he have?”

I didn’t agree on anything of the sort. And do your own work, make up your own definition of God. Let’s see just how small a God you have to come up with to be able to dispose of the concept without actually thinking.

[DanielLongo]

"But the Christians did not give in, so the Jews changed their strategy. They instead decided to corrupt the Old Testament and gain control of the Christians by giving them a corrupted Old Testament."

Interesting that you hold your point on the Jews "corrupting" the translation of the Hebrew text, but cast derision when we state believing in the Bible,"so far as it is translated correctly."

You are referencing only a few hundred years in that case, when the difference between the LXX and the prophecies of Joseph of Egypt is almost 2,000 years. In that time the scriptures were written, lost, rediscovered by Josiah's servant Hilkiah, disputed among the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah, appendaged, and restructured after the deaths of prophets (like Isaiah) who in life were disputed by religious leaders. There are at least twelve lost books, which are referenced but no longer available to us in the Old testament and even two epistles and possibly an additional referenced but missing from the New Testament. The LXX is hardly an undefiled canon of scripture.

You would have us believe that thousands of years of testimony by men who walked with God, from Adam to Noah, living from 300 to 900 years each, is to be found in a mere eight chapter narrative in the Book of Genesis? All that God found relevant to reveal to them is contained in 11 pages of a 1590 page record? That assertion is what defies belief!

[DanielLongo]

If you believe the Septuagint to be so infallable and such a difinitive source, then I guess you hold the following books as divine:

Esdras, Judith, Tobit, , 1 Maccabees , 2 Maccabees , 3 Maccabees , 4 Maccabees , Prayer of Manasseh , and the Book of Wisdom?

If so, why are they not in your Bible now?

[Old Mountain man]

Obvious hatchet job.

[LeGrande]

I didn’t agree on anything of the sort. And do your own work, make up your own definition of God. Let’s see just how small a God you have to come up with to be able to dispose of the concept without actually thinking.

So you are asking me, an Atheist, to come up with a definition of God that I find acceptable? Will my definition be acceptable to you, to fulfill your definition of God? Is the Nicaean Creed good enough for you or would you prefer Gaia or Despator?

I have noticed a curious trend with you FastCoyote. You have consistently refused to divulge your own beliefs. The most you have divulged is that you were raised Lutheran, and yet you have ignored answering if that is what you believe.

I understand why you don't answer my repeated inquiries. You know that you can't rationally and logically defend your own beliefs. You would much rather attack someone else's beliefs, because that is much easier.

Do you know what a person is who attacks others beliefs but won't express and defend their own?