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To: EternalVigilance
And Bible-believing Christians know that “The God of Israel, the Rock of Israel,” is, was, and always will be Jesus Christ, the One Who created us.

They also know that all Scripture is God-breathed, God-inspired.

All beside the point, and if you're going to tag Christ with everything that is written in the Old Testament, you've got a mountain of trouble coming your way, but that's a completely different discussion. But nice try at insinuating negative connotations on my religious beliefs. Please note that I will refrain from doing likewise on yours.

And, you’re the only one who said anything about “forcing others to be righteous.” (I believe that is commonly known as a strawman argument.)

No, actually you were the one who quoted, voluminously, on the subject of righteousness as a foundation for liberty. You were using that tactic to rebut, out of context, as usual, my quotes from Jefferson, Washington, and Henry. You're the one who offered the strawman argument that they were all righteous men. I will not dispute that, but it has nothing to do with whether or not they were libertarians. You have yet to address that.

You can’t force people to be righteous.

Gee, really? So now you are completely repudiating your entire defense? Oh well, as long as you understand that fundamental point. Or do you?

However, human government IS given to mankind as a gift by our Creator to restrain unrighteousness, human nature, in this world.

Apparently you don't get it. You can't have it both ways, Skippy. Either you can or you can't force them to be righteous, which is also beside the point, by the way. The point is whether you should force them to be righteous. The Founders very clearly believed we should not. That's because they were, guess what, libertarians!

As a final aside, which I will not pursue any further, human government is not given to us by God. It is wholly a creation of man. It is of the world, and therefore, not of God. Even Paul knew that.

So, here we are again, right back at the beginning. You need to produce some evidence of your assertion that the Founders were not libertarians. You seem to be having trouble staying on topic, so I'm going to give you a hand.

I posted the definition of libertarian before. Here is one of them again:

1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.

Produce evidence, preferably in the form of quotes, of the Founders repudiating liberty, especially with regard to thought or conduct.

Here is the other one:

2. a person who maintains the doctrine of free will (distinguished from necessitarian).

Produce documentation that the Founders were necessitarians.

Do not meander at length on their writings regarding whether or not liberty is founded upon righteousness. It does not go to an overall necessitarian belief system, and it doesn't not imply authoritarianism. Do not quote endless reams of Old Testament scripture. It is meaningless in this context.

303 posted on 10/01/2007 5:59:01 AM PDT by NCSteve (I am not arguing with you - I am telling you. -- James Whistler)
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To: NCSteve

You keep claiming that I need to prove that the founders were not libertarians.

But, fact is, it is you who claimed they were libertarians.

So, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

Prove that they would approve in any way of legalized drugs, prostitution, open borders, abortion, homosexualism, etc., as hardcore modern “libertarians” advocate, or that they would include the right to practice such things under the rubric of “liberty.”

Fact is, the founders were republicans, not libertarians.


306 posted on 10/01/2007 6:36:59 AM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The Pledge For America's Revival" - Alan Keyes 2008 - www.AlanKeyes.com)
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