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To: Twink
We don’t “worship” Mary, we honor her as the Mother of Jesus

I continue to have great respect for the Catholic Church; but....

Catholics do indeed worship Mary. Catholics pray to Mary more often than to God Himself. Catholics pray to angels, and to dead humans that have achieved sainthood. Forgiveness is asked from, and granted by, a priest...a human priest!

All of these practiced traditions are extra-biblical.

The Church is a vital institution, and critical to the well-being of man-kind. I would defend it.

84 posted on 09/27/2007 6:41:41 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu
Your ignorance on the issue of confession is manifest, but common. If you read the actual Rite of Reconciliation, the forgiveness is from GOD ALONE. The priest is merely the vehicle, just like he is in Baptism, Holy Eucharist, Matrimony, etc.

Furthermore, the Sacrament of confession is specifically Biblically based.

In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to "confess our sins to one another." Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God...it says confess your sins to one another.

In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to "men"...plural.

In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'" How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him...so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins.

And, just in case they didn't get it, verses 22-23 say this, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn't expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest...it is God's power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.

85 posted on 09/27/2007 6:49:53 AM PDT by CWW (Make the most of the loss, and regroup for 2008!!)
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To: laotzu
Forgiveness is asked from, and granted by, a priest...a human priest!

Nope. We speak our sins aloud, in the Sacrament of Penance, for our OWN benefit. We are finally owning up to the sins we've committed. The priest is there to act as 'the community' against which we've sinned, and to be the conduit, as Jesus Himself set up in the Gospels, through which forgiveness is sent from God. The priest doesn't 'forgive sins', only God can do that. The priest pronounces absolution.

Sure, we can ask for forgiveness directly from God, but we can also fall into sinful habits and attitudes, all the while justifying them to ourselves. If we have to speak those things aloud, to another person, we are challenged to confront the habits we've created, ask for, and receive, forgiveness for the attitudes we've allowed, and resolve to NOT fall back into sin. Of course, we are human, and we fail, but we know that if we repent, we will be forgiven.

108 posted on 09/27/2007 1:10:56 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: laotzu

I have to disagree. “Catholics” don’t worship Mary. I pray the Rosary daily. Is that considered worshipping her? My mom was devoted to the Blessed Mother, prayed the Rosary daily. We had two hymns about Mary at her funeral mass and our pastoral assistant even mentioned, _____, you have two Mary hymns, and I was like, yeah, and she said, I know your mom was devoted to praying the Rosary but two hymns, etc. They usually just allow one here.

We pray to Mary as an intercession/intersessor. And we know it’s not *needed* we can pray directly to God/Jesus. But, we do honor her. As Jesus’ mother.

Granted, my fav prayers our the Hail Mary, the Memorare is my favorite. If you look at the words of the Memorare, you’d see they’ll all about Jesus, her intercession.

When I was in grade school, a nun told us a story (just like a parable in the New Testament). She said, the gates were crowded, and Mary was pulling them in though the kitchen window. Maybe some who attended catholic grade school had the same story, I don’t know. But the lesson was, Mary is Jesus’ mother, and she is honored because of that. The Rosary is a great prayer and all of it is about Jesus.

I don’t know anyone who prays to dead people or angels. But I do know, I was taught as a little kid to make room for my guardian angel on my desk seat. Yeah, at the time I thought I really had to make room but as the years went by I understood it was all about teaching a lesson. I’ve never prayed to an angel or saint. Well, except St. Anthony when I lost stuff, lol, but we all know it’s just a tradition. St. Anthony please look around something is lost and can’t be found. Or St. Gerard (sp). The saint of moms. My mother pinned his medal to my body/shirt/bed when I was pregnant because he’s the patron saint of mothers, or pregnant women. We know it’s all through Jesus. A doctor told the nurse in my operating room not to remove the scapular(sp) and medal of St. Gerald that was pinned to my hospital gown. It meant something or means something to people. It’s not about worshipping since it’s all about Jesus.

Many of these traditions are “extra biblical” as you stated. Doesnt’t make them wrong. And none are worshipping.

My family does a huge Christmas Eve Dinner. Certain amount of fish, to acknowledge the Seven Sacaraments. It’s not ordained by the Church but it’s a tradition, it’s our recognition that night/prep for the Birth of Jesus. We don’t worship it or anything. It’s an Italian, or at least my family’s Italian tradition for Christmas Eve Dinner. It’s part of our family heritage. And never meat on Christmas Eve, lol.

All heritages are steeped in tradition and imo as long they honor God, Jesus, and the teachings (which are most important), what’s the big deal?

So I don’t worship Mary but I do honor her. I say the Rosary daily because the Rosary is about Jesus.

I have at least 7 fishes, and not just shell fish cos Italians know shell fish don’t count in the 7, for Christmas Eve dinner, lol. And never any meat or red gravy with meat. It’s a traditional meal to honor the coming birth of Jesus and represents the 7 Sacraments. It’s a family thing.

Confession. Tough one but still an answer. We don’t ask a human for forgiveness/absolution. And forgiveness is not given by the human priest. We ask and get from God. The human priest is just our physical way. I was taught in catholic grade school and throughout my life that’s important to go to Confession/Reconciliation. It’s a Sacrament. However, we were also taught that saying the Act of Contrition is the same or same result. Only non-catholics focus on the difference. Confession is like what happened in biblical times when one’s sins were known/public. Confession is the public acknowledgement of one’s sin (and we know sins were dealt with in public in biblical times). The priest doesn’t absolve one from sin, that’s God. The priest is the mouthpiece/human vessel so to speak. It comes from God/Jesus. I really don’t know how else to verbalize it.

Mary is not worshipped, but honored, as Jesus’ mother per the 4th Commandment. Every hymn/prayer about her is about Jesus. It’s about her intercession and Jesus talked about that in the Bible. It relates sorta to the Canaan (sp) wedding/wine when Mary interceded and again it was a lesson.

Also, many ethnic groups have their traditions. Many Catholic Italian groups have their little traditions, same with Irish and Polish (those are the 3 I’m familiar with). For example, St. Rita was a huge tradition thing in South Philly with *Italian South Philly Catholics*. Not sure any other area is familar with it. And again, it’s not a part of Catholicism but a part of certain ethnic/regional group who happen to be catholic. The same can be said for St. Patrick’s Day. It’s celebrated much differently here in the States than it is in Ireland and even regionally. My Dad was an Irish Catholic so we had to have the *meal* on St. Patty’s day. It’s more ethnic than catholic. Or more ethnic/catholic in this region but not in Ireland or a part of the Church. I’ll never forget the awful smell in the house when it was St. Patty’s Day, lol. Ham and Cabbage.

Traditions are wonderful, imo, especially when the focus or point is on Jesus/faith/Christianity. They’re exras but extras aren’t bad. We do the Christmas Eve Dinner, with the 7 fishes (and way more than 7 and no meat, lol)and we have most of the family here. To celebrate the birth of Jesus. That’s not bad in any way. It used to be at my mom’s but years ago it started being here. It’s the focus of our Christmas season. It’s the big family meal, for 30 or more. They’ve all been guilted into coming at first once it switched to here yet they all come every year. It’s a great family tradition but every single person knows the reason for the feast. It may not be their initial reason for coming and celebrating but they’re sitll coming and they can’t ignore the symbolism or reasoning.


117 posted on 09/28/2007 9:10:49 PM PDT by Twink
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