Posted on 09/19/2007 7:14:10 PM PDT by pissant
DENVER (AP) — James Dobson, one of the nation's most politically influential evangelical Christians, made it clear in a message to friends this week he will not support Republican presidential hopeful Fred Thompson.
In a private e-mail obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press, Dobson accuses the former Tennessee senator and actor of being weak on the campaign trail and wrong on issues dear to social conservatives.
"Isn't Thompson the candidate who is opposed to a Constitutional amendment to protect marriage, believes there should be 50 different definitions of marriage in the U.S., favors McCain-Feingold, won't talk at all about what he believes, and can't speak his way out of a paper bag on the campaign trail?" Dobson wrote.
"He has no passion, no zeal, and no apparent 'want to.' And yet he is apparently the Great Hope that burns in the breasts of many conservative Christians? Well, not for me, my brothers. Not for me!"
The founder and chairman of Colorado Springs-based Focus on the Family, Dobson draws a radio audience in the millions, many of whom who first came to trust the child psychologist for his conservative Christian advice on child-rearing.
Gary Schneeberger, a Focus on the Family spokesman, confirmed that Dobson wrote the e-mail. Schneeberger declined to comment further, saying it would be inappropriate because Dobson's comments about presidential candidates are made as an individual and not as a representative of Focus on the Family, a nonprofit organization restricted from partisan politics.
Dobson's strong words about Thompson underscore the frustration and lack of unity among Christian conservatives about the GOP field. Some Christian right leaders have pinned their hopes on Thompson, describing him as a Southern-fried Ronald Reagan. But others have voiced doubts in recent weeks about some of the same issues Dobson highlighted: his position on gay marriage and support for the 2002 McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform legislation.
Dobson and other Christian conservatives support an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would bar gay marriage nationally. Thompson has said he would support a constitutional amendment that would prohibit states from imposing their gay marriage laws on other states, which falls well short of that.
Karen Hanretty, a spokeswoman for the Thompson campaign, said Wednesday in response to the Dobson e-mail: "Fred Thompson has a 100 percent pro-life voting record. He believes strongly in returning authority to the levels of government closest to families and communities, protecting states from intrusion by the federal government and activist judges.
"We're confident as voters get to know Fred, they'll appreciate his conservative principles, and he is the one conservative in this race who can win the nomination and can go on to defeat the Democratic nominee."
In his e-mail addressed "Dear friends," Dobson includes the text of a recent news story highlighting Thompson's statement that while he was baptized in the Church of Christ, he does not attend church regularly and won't speak about his faith on the stump.
U.S. News and World Report quoted Dobson earlier this year as questioning Thompson's commitment to the Christian faith — comments Dobson contended were not put in proper context. Dobson in this week's e-mail writes that suppositions "about the former senator's never having professed to be a Christian are turning out to be accurate in substance."
Earlier this year, Dobson said he wouldn't back John McCain because of the Arizona senator's opposition to a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.
Later, Dobson wrote on a conservative news Web site that he wouldn't support former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani should he win the Republican nomination. Dobson called Giuliani an "unapologetic supporter of abortion on demand" and criticized him for signing a bill in 1997 creating domestic-partnership benefits in New York City.
Last week, Dobson announced on his radio show that the IRS had cleared him of accusations that he had endangered his organization's nonprofit status by endorsing Republican candidates in 2004. The IRS said Dobson, who endorsed President Bush's re-election bid, was acting as an individual and not on behalf of the nonprofit group.
“The Republican Party has now become the Evangelical Party and that is why so many have left the party.”
Guess you can blame President Reagan for that, since he’s responsible for activating “evangelicals” in the GOP.
And unless I’ve missed something, seems like the Repubs have done pretty well since. Five terms in the White House (Dems two). Seizing control of both houses of Congress for the first time since 1952.
The squandering away of those GOP majorities is because when they became the majority, the GOP proved themselves as effective as Dems at spilling red ink all over the landscape with “bridges to nowhere” and earmarks and homosexual scandals — none of which are “evangelicals” fault.
But since life and marriage are the agenda of the Arlington Group, still curious which part of that you disagree with.
O.K., Radio, I’ve just decided you’re simply an idiot, if you really, truly, sincerely believe that 21st century Christian conservatives are the equivalent of Hitler’s Brownshirts.
Come on. Further discredit yourself by letting it all hang out. Tell us how James Dobson is the equivalent of Adolph Hitler.
If the Bible is complete and in no need of further scripture, you have made that claim out of whole cloth. The Bible itself does not claim it is complete, and contains all of God’s words.
There are many references to missing books, and Paul’s letters that are not in the Bible we have today.
If we are to live by EVERY word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God, we need more than the Bible.
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen” John 21:25
I suppose that even if the world could contain the books that should be written, you wouldn’t read them because of your incorrect interpretation of a “sealed” Bible. You are not heeding God’s command to accept EVERY word from his mouth.
Missing books referenced by who?
I do accept EVERY word from God’s “mouth” - and believe that it is all contained in the WORD of GOD known as the Bible.
You have taken your quote from John 21 completely out of context. What was being said by the author in this case? He was simply saying that not every act of Jesus Christ was written down (and considering I believe that the Bible is literally authored by God Himself, this makes even more sense) because the events were so plentiful. Indeed, if a detailed, hour-by-hour description had been kept of Jesus’ 3 year public ministry - that alone would be a huge amount of writing, not to mention all that He did and said when just speaking with the Apostles. Because God divinely guided the writing of His Book, He chose to only include that which was deemed necessary (and indeed, there are times in the Bible texts where the penman is instructed to NOT write certain things they have witnessed).
No amount of taking Bible text out of context will back up “adding to” the scriptures.
And consider this also (I bet you didn’t realize you were debating with a former LDS member, did you?) - I have, in years past, studied extensively the Book of Mormon - and one of the things that quite bothered me was some apparent conflicts that I just could not rectify between that book and the Bible. Some of the conflicts were simply variations in ideas, to downright disagreement.
“...Romney ‘is still on the list.’ “
That may be what he says publicly.
“This forum clearly shows how religious extremists have taken over the party.”
Uh-huh.
1. Define “extremists.”
2. Provide evidence that said “extremists” have taken over the party.
3. If you mean simply that pro-life, pro-marriage voters are obviously of significant influence in the party, please explain what the GOP’s political fortunes would have been the last 20 years, or in the next, if they don’t vote Republican.
But first, don’t try to slip away. First, retract and apologize for daring to be (1) such an extremist or (2) such an idiot that you compare evangelical Christian Americans to murderous Nazi thugs who killed 6 million Jews.
“I now see Mormons, Wiccans and Libertarians under attack here...”
Radio, your gross hypocrisy is repugnant.
YOU are obviously guilty of viciously attacking evangelical Christian Americans, comparing them to Nazis.
“You must now resort to imposing ‘Christian Values’ at the point of a gun.”
Again, please enlighten us.
Provide an example of evangelical Christian Americans imposing anything at the point of a gun.
Provide evidence of the “destruction” of the Repub Party.
Provide evidence of your ignorant assertion that the Arlington Group’s goal is a “Christian Nation.” (How many of its mtgs have you attended?)
BTW, you don’t need to have as a goal something that’s already an historic and demographic fact.
If a Constitutional amendment to define marriage would have such negative effects, explain why existing state laws defining marriage have not had such effects over the course of all American history to date.
Why do local laws about alcohol (e.g., 'dry' counties) not cause organized crime, but national Prohibition did? You can speculate, but I think it's because when it's local each law can suit each area's preference as expressed by its voters.
Besides, it's only one step from one-size-fits-all national edicts to one-size-fits-all world edicts. The same argument you make in the national vs. state context are made by globalists in the global vs. national context.
In my opinion, when in doubt, err towards making government smaller and more local, never larger and more remote -- whatever the issue.
“In my opinion, when in doubt, err towards making government smaller and more local, never larger and more remote — whatever the issue.”
I agree with this statement re: most issues.
However, I am not “in doubt” that protecting life and marriage are more important than the concept of “federalism.”
Who are you to decide what the context of John 21 is? Peter tells us in 2 Peter 2:21 (exact chapter and verse not sure) that no scripture is of private interpretation--which is what you have done.
Since you now (apparently) embrace the beliefs of Protestant Christianity that denies current revelation, you cannot with any authority claim to interpret any scripture, because to do so (according to Peter) requires the spirit of revelation--which you deny exists.
No amount of rationalizing on your part can explain away your deficient understanding of the Bible, its completeness, or lack thereof. If you aren't aware of the many internal errors and contradictions in the Bible texts I won't waste my time explaining them to you. You need to do more study, both of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. There is no contradiction between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
What???!!!! Do you even comprehend what "private interpretation" means? IN this particular case, it simply means that prophecy does not come out of one's personal desire to prophecy -
Context:
1 Peter 1:19-21 - 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
In other words, the prophecy didn't come by someone's imagination. This is meant as a qualification/testament of the accuracy of the scriptures. No scripture is the revelation of Man's mind, but of God.
Context is EVERYTHING (the old saying "text without context is a pretext" says a whole lot).
And to your assertion that there are no contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, try these on for size:
Moroni 8:8 vs. Psalm 51:5
Nephi 2:23-25 vs. Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 5:12; 8:20-21
Nephi 5:21 vs. Acts 17:26; Galations 3:28; James 2:1
2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32 vs. Ephesians 2:1,5 & 10;Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6, etc.
Helaman 14:27 vs. Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44
Ether 1:34-45 vs. Genesis 11:1
And a few more oddities (I will admit they are not all my doing):
Alma 7:10 (Jesus born in Jerusalem?)
Alma 46:13,15 (First reference to Christians late 70's BC (ys, BC) vs. Acts 11:26 - dating closer to 40 AD.
And of course, many have done similar research (with much more time on their hands than I have) and have also found some major contradictions of the Book of Mormon with itself. See this page (I'm not in the mood to copy/paste tonight. I just finished a major 9 page exam.
http://www.bible.ca/mor-contradictions.htm
So I have given you some bones to chew on. I look forward to a well-studied and thought out reply. But please don't bring any stale "official church statements" to the table.
My concern is for the souls of the lost (those who do not know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior). Salvation is not of works - it is by Grace through Faith, and not of works.(Ephesians 2:8-9)
It is not the Holy Ghost Saundra, that leads the LDS. You are decieved as your “history” of the trinity shows. Simply read John 1, written by John, the disciple of Christ. You see clearly that Christ and the Father are one from the beginning of time. The idea that they are seperate is a recent innovation, a falsehood from Satan. I understand that your church has told you something different, regarding the Godhead, it is semantics that does not match John 1. It is false.
Sure. And the Presbyterian Church is filled with storm troopers. Sarcasm is the only response that your statement deserves. Is there a fact in your statement? Any basis for it? No and no.
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Of course I do. I’m old enough to remember what happened when people jumped on the “Germany is a Christian Nation” bandwagon.
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You are spouting anti-Christian B.S. Many, many Christian churches, Christians, ministers and priests helped the Jews in Hitler’s Germany. Many priests and ministers were put in the camps by the Nazi’s because of their activities against the Nazi’s. John Paul II in Poland had to hide his entrance into seminary under the Nazi’s to stay alive. You’ve bought a bunch of communist anti-Christian propaganda.
It counts for exactly as much as what Dobson thinks. :p
That decision is ultimately above all of our pay grades, if you know what I mean.
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Yah, if a person says “I am a Christian” and they are not openly living in a way that contradicts that statement, supporting things that a Christian clearly wouldn’t support politically, or espousing or supporting doctrine that is clearly false or contrary to the Bible — we have to take the person at their word. Phew. Long sentence. You said it better. We aren’t the judge of this issue. Has Fred said he is a Christian though?
Who annoited you as arbiter?
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Before one judges another they have to be righteous or they judge in vain!
If one is living under the Biblical Law the are subject to the Law!
And have no authority in judging who is or who isn't a follower of Jesus Christ!
One may read about what is or isn't but in their finite mind they are are not God and do not know the hearts and minds of others!
Gal 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
When one call another doctine of Satan that person is provoking and is not under the spirit of the Lord
1 Cor. 2:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Enough is Enough!
by Paul Allen
Editor’s Note: This is a letter to the editor that appeared in a November, 2000 issue of a Santa Clarita, California newspaper called The Signal. Since in the last few weeks, it has been circulated widely on the Internet among members of the Church, Meridian confirmed its legitimacy with the newspaper editor who said with some puzzlement that he’d been swamped with calls asking the same question.
I have heard and seen enough! I have lived in the West all my life. I have worked with them. They have worked for me, and I for them. When I was young I dated their daughters. When I got married they came to my wedding. Now that I have daughters of my own, some of their sons have dated my daughters. I would be privileged if one of them were to become my son-in-law. I’m talking about the Mormons. They are some of the most honest, hard-working people I have ever known. They are spiritual, probably more than most other so-called religious people I have encountered. They study the Bible and teach from it. I have heard many times from the pulpits of others how evil and non Christian they are and that they will not go to heaven. I decided to attend one of their services to see for myself. What a surprise! What I heard and saw was just the opposite from what the religious ministers of the day were telling me. I found a very simple service with no fanfare. I found a people with a great sense of humor and a well-balanced spiritual side. There was no loud music, just a simple service, the members themselves giving the several short sermons. They serve their religion without pay in every conceivable capacity. None of their teachers, counselors, bishops or music directors receive one dime for the hours of labor they put in. The Mormons have a non-paid ministry—a fact not generally known. They urge their youth to be morally clean and live a good life. They teach the gospel of Christ, as they understand it. The name of their church is ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.’ Does that sound like a non-Christian church to you? I asked them many questions about what they teach and why. I got answers that, in most cases, were from the New Testament. Their ideas and doctrines did not seem too far-fetched for my understanding. When I read their ‘Book of Mormon’ I was also very surprised to find just the opposite from what I had been told I would find.
Then I went to another church’s pastor to ask him some of the same questions about doctrine. To my surprise, when he found that I was in some way investigating the Mormons, he became hostile. He referred to them as a non-Christian cult. I received what sounded to me like evil propaganda against those people. He stated bluntly that they were not telling me the truth about what they stand for. He didn’t want to hear anything good about them. At first I was surprised, and then again, I wasn’t. I began to wonder. I have never known of a ‘cult’ that supports the Boy Scouts of America, but, according to the Boy Scouts, over a third of all the Boy Scout troops in the United States are Mormon. What cult do you know that has a welfare system second to none in this country? They have farms, canneries and cattle ranches to help take care of the unfortunate ones who might be down and out and in need of a little help. The Mormon Church has donated millions to welfare causes around the world without a word of credit. They have donated thousands to help re-build Baptist churches that were burned a few years ago. They have donated tons of medical supplies to countries ravaged by earthquakes. You never see them on TV begging for money. What ‘cult’ do you know of that instills in its members to obey the law, pay their taxes, serve in the military if asked, and be a good Christian by living high moral standards? Did you know that hundreds of thousands of Mormon youth get up before high school starts in the morning to attend a religious training class?
They have basketball and softball leagues and supervised youth dances every month. They are recruited by the FBI and every police department in the country because they are trustworthy. They are taught not to drink nor take drugs. They are in the Secret Service who protect the president. They serve in Congress and in the U.S. Senate and have been governors of several states other than Utah. They serve with distinction and honor. If you have Mormons living near, you will probably find them to be your best neighbors. They are Christians who try to live what they preach.
They are not perfect and they are the first to admit this. I have known some of them who could not live their religion, just like many of us.
The rhetoric which is spread around against them is nothing more than evil propaganda founded in untruths. Others had successfully demonized them to the point that the general public has no idea what they actually believe and teach. If you really want to know the truth, go see for yourself. You, also, will be surprised. When I first moved here some 25 years ago there were five Mormon wards. Now there are 15. They must be doing something right.
Paul Allen
Santa Clarita
Sorry, my Mormon FRiend. No group of Christians, from any church consider Mormon’s Christian. The reasons are that you are polytheists, believing in many gods; that you believe that you can become gods (which is the oldest of the lies of Satan); that you follow “scripture” that contradicts the Bible; that you deny the absolute truth of the Bible; that you condemn Christians as apostate; that you believe Joseph Smith takes part in your judgement at the end of time before Christ; etc.
Am I a Mormon? If no, then who (put in a haughty tone here) “appointed you arbiter?”
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