Posted on 09/14/2007 7:16:34 AM PDT by kindred
Dozens of Christian churches ranging from Catholic to Pentecostal in theology are rallying this weekend in Leesburg, My Stand" on the back. The two-mile event Klingenschmitt noted that there are court cases already going on in several locations over the use by a Christian chaplain of the use of the words, "in Jesus' name." "Now the American people are rising to defend chaplains who pray in Jesus name. The public outcry against the hospital was so great the CEO already had to resign," he said. Hospital officials also just announced the departure of president Louis Bremer, but said it was because he felt it was time to seek new opportunities, not because of the public reaction to the dismissal of Harvey. The hospital said it dismissed Harvey from his $48,000-a-year post not because he was praying in the name of Jesus Christ, "but [because] the official duties of a paid position were not being met. Those duties include being respectful of the different religious beliefs of our patients and the ability to lead them in their faith in their time of need." Hospital officials told a newspaper guidelines from the Association of Clinical Pastoral Education teach respect for all religions. "Furthermore, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees that all citizens have a fundamental right to freely exercise their religious beliefs, and that includes military service people." The civil rights complaint stems from a 1998 memo issued by the Navy Chief of Chaplains that discouraged them from invoking the name of Jesus in their prayers. "This instruction was later embodied in an instruction from the secretary of the Navy, which provided that religious elements for a command function, absent extraordinary circumstances, should be non-sectarian in nature," the lawsuit said.
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
“Hear O Israel the Lord your God is One” has no inherent conflict with Christian beliefs, so I wouldn’t expect it to be disapproved of by a Christian.
It appears you have created an intractable problem that can only result in no prayer at all being allowed in a multi-religious environment. Most chaplains speaking to a multi-religious audience know they are personally praying to their specific god, they know where their heart is, but the speech is such that listeners can apply it equally to their faith. Some apparently want to use the opportunity to proselytize, which is rightfully not appreciated by the institutes that hired them to cater to the needs of a multi-religious group.
Which gets to the point. It tends to work in the other direction. I have heard Jewish chaplains use specificly Jewish formulae and never get called on it. Much gets past these days, but strictly speaking, all mixed prayer is problematical. Ecumenicalism tends to shade into indifferentism. So whoever wrote the job description, whoever has made this rule, has taken sides in a theological dispute. To the Christian the name Jesus is the only name we use in addressing God. Jews have felt insulted by the statement of some Christians that their prayers are in vain. One can argue, as I do, that such a claim attempts to place limits on the All-mighty, and Ignores the historical fact that many Christians continued to attend synagogue even after the destruction of the Temple.
IAC. Christians who pray in the company of non-Christians are already making a concession, a bit like the non-Catholic who attends mass, or a Catholic who attends a Protestant service. Now, what gets to decide the matter? The guy with the money? Is that right?
Of course. Would it make sense for a non-Catholic to take such a position at a Catholic organization? Of course not, they want Catholics in such roles.
Whether you can deal with this multi-religion preaching is a personal matter of your religion. You can't, and that's fine -- those are your sincerely held personal religious beliefs and I will not deride them. But if you are not the type of Christian who can deal with this stuff, then don't take a job where it is required.
And as was said, you are free to avoid the organization if you don't appreciate the policy.
There is nothing wrong with that. What has developed in contemporary America is a sort of state religion that is not Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other faith, but a generic belief that syncretizes some common ground, such as the existence of a deity, the acknowledgment of right and wrong, and some sort of afterlife. In effect, it is not unlike the state religion of the Roman Empire. The empire tolerated the worship systems of all the nations under its rule as long as they all acknowledged the divine nature of Caesar. Two religions did not acknowledge that rule: Judaism and Christianity. The Jewish nation was forcibly dispersed and Jerusalem destroyed in 70 AD. Christianity was persecuted with varying degrees of intensity in the first three centuries of its existence.
The only reason this is an issue is because the government, which as George Washington put it, is neither reason nor eloquence, but force, insists upon public events, such as military gatherings and legislative assemblages, where the state religion is acknowledged in nonsectarian prayers. This state religion replaced the generic Protestantism that prevailed at government assemblages in the 18th and 19th Centuries, and hung on until about 1950 in a diminished form. That generic Protestantism in turn replaced the specific denominations, such as Anglicans and Puritans, that dominated the assemblages of the colonial era.
The best solution for lessening or eliminating the state religion of a vague theism and ethical code would be to eliminate those circumstances where such prayers occur. It would hardly hurt my feelings if Congress, the state legislatures, and city, county, and school district councils dispensed with ineffectual prayer just before they pass new schemes to separate us from our money, property, and rights. At least the legislators would not be hypocrites. Abolishing public schools would also be a good idea. Let the private sector handle this matter, and let people choose schools that adhere to their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
[Is one necessary in a group function such as that? And even if the staff desires to have one, he can give a generic religious or spiritual speech. In a mix of Christians he can learn to give a non-denominational prayer too.]
Secular humansist pray to their god Satan. Muslims pray to their god Allah. Jewish pray to the God of Israel. We Christians pray to The God of Israel’s Holy Spirit conceived virgin born Son Jesus of Nazareth who we believe died for all sinners sins and rose again the third day and is alive forevermore.
We worship God’s only begotten Son Jesus and do not pray to false gods or satan or angels or dead prophets. And the first ammendment of the Constition of America allows us to do so without being persecuted by secular humanist dictates or other peoples gods.
Why don’t you understand?
You lost any semblance of rational, informed conversation right there.
And the first ammendment of the Constition of America allows us to do so without being persecuted by secular humanist dictates or other peoples gods. Why don’t you understand?
Because the First Amendment doesn't only apply to you.
[Because the First Amendment doesn’t only apply to you.]
Agreed. But we pray to God in the name of HIS only Begotten Son Jesus of Nazareth who is our one God and Savior and are commanded to pray only to Him in Jesus name, who is Christ indeed and sits on the Fathers right hand and is the rejected King of Israel.
[You lost any semblance of rational, informed conversation right there.]
P.S. All who deny the existence of one God and who believe the religion of evolution therefore worships the fallen angel Lucifer who uses these useful idiots that deny all scientific proof that there is no evolution and is a son or daughter of the dark one.
And all who deny the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHH) worship the Purple Oyster.
If you believe this, as is your right, then I would suggest not taking a job that requires you to minister to people of other faiths. Similarly, I would suggest that vegans not take jobs in meat packing plants, Jews not take jobs in hog farms and devout Christians not take jobs in abortion clinics.
It's not the business of government to delve into the subtle nuances of matters of faith and to criticize or direct the content of prayers or other ceremonies of that chaplian.
Too many people forget that the Constitution prohibits the government from even being conscious of differences of specific religious belief, or of gods and the way human beings think of them, or of God and how one might relate to Him.
If you don't like the chaplain's religious particulars keep it to yourself ~ his religious practices are none of your business, nor are your practices (or absence thereof) any of his.
One of the things that really offends me is to be in a large gathering and someone offers up a prayer ~ and leaves us without any understanding of what his own religious beliefs might be.
The reason this offends is that I might have just joined a religious group that enjoins me from hearing the words of prayer of a gentile, and whereas I might have had a chance to cover my ears or step out while the infidel preacher droned on, I am trapped and forced to violate my own rules.
So, I want to know what they will pray for and to Whom. Then a pause. Then a quick escape. Then a quiet muffled, shuffled return. Last thing I'd want is a high government official, or a judge, to review the prayer lest it be offensive to somebody somewhere. I don't attend religious meetings presided over by the government or judges.
A congregation necessarily consists of people of similar belief or ethnicity.
Besides, that Jewish guy shouldn't be praying along semi-silently with the non-Jews unless he's certain that a minion of 10 is present.
It does not serve to restrain ANY OF US, not even a chaplain.
Did you just discover an FR time-warp software bug, or are you posting to a four month-old thread?
I’ve posted to threads that were years old. Some discussions just never die you know.
Okay. In any case, you haven’t written anything I haven’t already covered. It boils down to personal responsibility — don’t take a job that requires you to do things you don’t want, and don’t take a job that restrains you from doing what you want. People take jobs that restrict their 1st Amendment rights constantly, such as any government job that requires a security clearance.
You are always free to not take the job.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.