Posted on 09/02/2007 6:42:46 AM PDT by Man50D
When Republican Mike Huckabee met supporters at Knights Stadium last week, more than two dozen showed up wearing the uniform of a group trying to flex its muscle in the presidential primaries.
Dressed in white shirts with "Fair Tax" logos, they're part of a growing movement in South Carolina and around the country pushing for drastic overhaul of the nation's tax laws.
Their group, Americans for Fair Taxation, would abolish the federal income tax and Internal Revenue Service and repeal the 16th Amendment that authorizes them. They would replace it all with a 23 percent national sales tax.
Thousands of Fair Tax supporters rallied in May outside the Republican presidential debate in Columbia. A month later, more than 100 waved signs as would-be candidate Fred Thompson arrived there for a speech.
"We really think that the winner of the South Carolina presidential primary will be a Fair Tax supporter," said John Steinberger, a Charleston teacher and the group's state director.
A handful of wealthy Houston businessmen started the group more than a decade ago. The idea was popularized in a 2005 book co-authored by Neal Boortz, whose syndicated radio show airs on WBT.
Congressional proponents include Charlotte Republican Rep. Sue Myrick. She's among 63 co-sponsors of a House bill that would enact those changes.
Supporters argue that by closing loopholes and taxing what people spend, not what they earn, the sales tax would be more fair. They acknowledge that a sales tax is regressive, falling most heavily on the poor who spend a greater share of income. They say the government would make payments to the poor to help them pay the new tax.
Critics say the change is unrealistic and unworkable, and would create an accounting nightmare that would fall heavily on state governments ill-prepared to handle it.
"
(Excerpt) Read more at charlotte.com ...
Its clear to me he is telling YOU, you can't have it both ways. If one buys the hidden taxes built into prices today, then one must also agree that anyone who buys stuff today is paying taxes.
Yes I did. Forget the Fair Tax.
I said, today, there's 23% in hidden taxes. Today, when you buy something for $100, about $23 goes to the federal government from withholding, employer FICA and employee FICA-- taxes that are built into the price.
Lucy, individual taxes are incident on the worker. If you disagree, take it up with ANY economist. Easily illustrated - if I have $100 withheld from my paycheck, will the sales price of the item I help produce change if my taxes decrease? increase? Of course not.
wrong.. read again.
I would like a tax cut that meant more than deferring the cost of government today to some future taxpayer.
OK - so if the company does not sell that product, have the taxes necessitating the price increase already been paid?
What then does the money collected in the prices serve to do?
Are the buyers paying tax or reimbursing seller's costs?
Me too Lucy. I just don't think different marginal rates and withholding will get us there. I'd support a flat tax if they eliminated withholding. That way the IRS people could keep their jobs. I believe eliminating withholding would put downward pressure on taxes. But the flat tax proposals keep withholding AND business taxes.
Doesn't growing the tax base mean increasing the number of the taxable activities rather than increasing the number of people paying tax?
THe nrst does both, independently. The tax base grows and the number of payers increases nearly two fold.
“payers” = “taxpayers”
In the refrigerator?
How long do you think we can all drive used cars?
I drive a '66 Chevy pickup almost everyday, and almost everyday am approached by some one who wants to buy it.
Who's going to buy used toys at Christmas when little Bobbie wants the latest and greatest?
Perhaps Bobbie will learn how to read and use his imagination.
If someone is selling used toothbrushes...
Does that mean my dentist won't give me new toothbrushes anymore?
Everyone who buys something today pays about 23% in hidden taxes, yes.
If the Fair Tax is implemented and workers take home their net pay, then companies can use the full amout of hidden taxes (23%) to reduce their prices. After adding the Fair Tax (23%), retail prices will remain the same as they are today.
Weren't YOU the one who told ME that the Fair Tax simply makes these hidden taxes visible?
But who's changing their story now? Are you now telling me that there's only 9% to work with? That companies are only going to reduce their prices by 9% before adding the Fair Tax?
And you have the cojones to accuse me of changing MY story?
"So now you agree that the base is almost twice as large AND there will be more payers."
I'll type real slow so maybe this time you'll get it. TODAY, everyone is paying 23% in everything they buy. You, me, criminals, illegals, foreign visitors, everybody. It's hidden but it's there. I showed you where.
Under the Fair Tax, people will be paying that 23% on everything they buy -- if they don't buy used or if they don't cheat. But they will buy used and they will cheat. The base will have to DECREASE because of that and there will have to be LESS payers because of that.
Huh?!
You're getting way ahead of yourself. I'm still trying to get you to answer a simple, basic question.
Forget about the Fair Tax. Today, a $100 product contains how much in hidden taxes as I defined hidden taxes? I say it's around $23. You said I'm "off the reservation". So, how much is it? Today.
"You said 23%, then you said "it depends"
That's after the Fair Tax. Let's leave that for now. We'll get to that later. I promise.
How much is there in hidden taxes in a product today?
But, but, business doesn't pay taxes, their customers pay taxes.
In the sewer?
I drive a '66 Chevy pickup almost everyday, and almost everyday am approached by some one who wants to buy it.
Good for you. So you're telling me the market for used goods is alive and well under the income tax? How DO those states collect their sales taxes?
Perhaps Bobbie will learn how to read and use his imagination.
It's not Bobbie it's his parents.
Does that mean my dentist won't give me new toothbrushes anymore?
He does that because he sees what you're driving.
Downward pressure on taxes is not the issue, spending is the issue. The amount of money collected in taxes is not related to the amount of money spent by government - get it?
Now you're starting to piss me off. Why are you complicating this unnecessarily?
Geez robert, what if they have a 20% off sale? What if the customer returns the product? What if it's damaged? What about a shoplifter -- isn't he really paying the hidden tax?
If the company doesn't sell the product they go out of business -- which is what will happen when we have the Fair Tax and everyone starts buying used products instead of this guy's new stuff.
"Are the buyers paying tax or reimbursing seller's costs?"
Who ... cares ... what ... you ....call ... it? Think of a service industry -- a lawyer, for example. The hourly rate he charges you includes the taxes he has to pay the government. If he didn't pay taxes he could charge you less.
This is why the illegal immigrant is so cheap. He doesn't pay income taxes. If he did, he'd charge you more to cut the grass. Meaning ... YOU are paying his income taxes when you hire him!
No, you'd charge me more, say $130, so you'd still have $100 left after paying $30 in taxes.
So, when I now pay you $130 to cut my grass, who's really paying the tax?
With the Fair Tax, your hated recreational and black-market prescription drug dealers would have to pay their fair share of taxes.
What gives?
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