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For the hydrogen economy, first add water
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/index.php/blog/for_the_hydrogen_economy_first_add_water/ ^

Posted on 08/31/2007 7:06:01 PM PDT by abc123alphabetagamma

The holy grail is to be able to generate hydrogen on demand without using more energy to get it than it releases. It might have been found by Purdue University researchers. They've developed a method which uses an alloy of aluminium and gallium. Add water to it and the aluminium attracts teoxygen, liberating hydrogen. The problem has been that aluminium has a tendency to form an oxide skin, creating a barrier to further reaction. The gallium hinders the formation of that surface skin on the aluminium, and allows all of it to be used to release hydrogen.

The team found they could create particles of the alloy by slow cooling, giving 80 percent aluminium and 20 percent gallium, a ratio that gives good stability in dry air, and rapid reaction with water. It's important that the gallium component, currently much more expensive than aluminium, is inert in this reaction and can be recovered and re-used. It is also significant that the gallium can be relatively impure, and less costly than the high grade gallium used in electronics.

The technology has the potential to generate hydrogen as and where it is needed, avoiding the costly process of storage and transportation.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: tanstaafl
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1 posted on 08/31/2007 7:06:02 PM PDT by abc123alphabetagamma
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To: abc123alphabetagamma
What we need to do is create massive whale-like ships that cruise through the universe gobbling up hydrogen atoms just like real whales gobble up krill.

The hydrogen atoms would be combined together in solid bricks within the ship and then defecated at a high rate of speed back to earth for processing.

Now that would be feasible!

2 posted on 08/31/2007 7:10:34 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: abc123alphabetagamma
Sorry, guys. No free lunches. It takes lots of energy to refine aluminum. But it could provide a nice supply of hydrogen, if we want to go that route. Long time before the infrastructure would migrate to a hydrogen economy, however. we are stuck with oil for the next 20 years or so. Get used to it.
3 posted on 08/31/2007 7:11:11 PM PDT by foghornleghorn
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To: abc123alphabetagamma

You can’t get more energy out than you put in. Something besides the water must be consumed by this process.


4 posted on 08/31/2007 7:12:27 PM PDT by DB
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To: abc123alphabetagamma
How much energy does it take to produce and refine the alloy? Not that using it releases more energy than consumed. This is old news that floats around those kooky 'free energy' sites all the time.

Toss your empty beer cans into a bucket of draino and you'll get all hydrogen you want for "free" as well.

If you have half a brain, you'll do it outside.

5 posted on 08/31/2007 7:13:43 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

You very nearly made me choke when I read that comment! LOL!


6 posted on 08/31/2007 7:15:42 PM PDT by B Knotts (Anybody but Giuliani!)
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To: abc123alphabetagamma

“without using more energy to get it than it releases”

Sounds like the perpetual motion machine.

Why not use solar energy to power the conversion? Still uses more energy that it releases but that’s not really the point is it? The point is to release more energy at a lower PRICE.

There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of cheap energy.


7 posted on 08/31/2007 7:16:23 PM PDT by live+let_live
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To: DB
Not to mention the tons of electricity it takes to make aluminum as well as that other alloy.

"free" energy indeed, LoL! They aren't too bright at that university.

8 posted on 08/31/2007 7:16:43 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: live+let_live
regular draino (caustic lye) completely reacts aluminum cans back to it's raw form, which can them be remade back into aluminum again.

It's not a new process by any means, nor are many other chemical reactions. Ask Saddam about his weather ballon trucks. He knows how to make lots of hydrogen on demand too.

9 posted on 08/31/2007 7:21:02 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Wouldn’t those bricks of hydrogen atoms explode on re-entry?
Poof! there goes the atmosphere!
You’d better rethink those whale like ships delivery system.


10 posted on 08/31/2007 7:24:52 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Nathan Zachary
OK. So we encapsulate the hydrogen in a metal-alloy shell.

An 80% Aluminum / 20% low grade Gallium alloy shell should do the trick!

11 posted on 08/31/2007 7:26:53 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: live+let_live
Sounds like the perpetual motion machine.

It's completely idiotic. Hydrogen gas can be generated by tossing calcium or more reactive metals into water. Reducing the metal in huge electrolytic molten salt baths takes enormous amounts of electricity, just ask Alcoa. Just another rob Peter, pay Paul scheme cooked up by those who failed chemistry but still want to dictate policy. It makes more sense to desalinate sea water with nuclear power plants and turn Nevada into the world's largest oil palm plantation for fuel.
12 posted on 08/31/2007 7:29:12 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Ok scotty, get right on it.

I was also thinking, that if you expelled those bricks over the ME, in a measured release, it may only cause a temporary lack of oxygen, 10-20 mins or so. Might be a good thing...

Also, if your ships had 2 collectors, one for oxygen atoms and one for hydrogen, you could make a first generation warp drive? Hmmm....


13 posted on 08/31/2007 7:30:45 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Nathan Zachary
If you have half a brain, you'll do it outside.

If you have less than half a brain and do it inside, you will have no brain. LOL

14 posted on 08/31/2007 7:33:49 PM PDT by vox humana
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

from the original article:

“As the alloy reacts with water, the aluminum turns into aluminum oxide, also called alumina, which can be recycled back into aluminum. The recycled aluminum would be less expensive than mining the metal, making the technology more competitive with other forms of energy production, Woodall said.”

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/pu-eph082707.php

THERE AIN’T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH!

Purdue hasn’t figured out a way to repeal the laws of thermodynamics. Like somebody mentioned earlier, it takes a lot of energy to convert alumina to aluminum.


15 posted on 08/31/2007 7:33:53 PM PDT by RBroadfoot
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To: Nathan Zachary

I prefer to use dilute HCl.


16 posted on 08/31/2007 7:34:43 PM PDT by RBroadfoot
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To: SpaceBar

Exactly what I was saying. They aren’t too bright at that university. Alcan would love to sell them all the Aluminum they need for their experiments however.
I notice this is from one of those ‘fre enrgy over unity day dreamer sites though, where as you corectly say, they failed grade 5 science class.

They think a magnet has some supernatural mysterious powers too, even though we make the damn things.


17 posted on 08/31/2007 7:36:55 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: abc123alphabetagamma

Shhh....don’t tell the liberal environmentalist whacko’s that water vapor is caused by burning H2 and/or fossil fuels and water vapor is a much more effective greenhouse gas than CO2.


18 posted on 08/31/2007 7:37:17 PM PDT by Mogollon
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To: live+let_live
I had the same thought, use Solar, but, that can be expensive to implement.
The start up cost would be the problem and the reliability ( unless you use huge batteries.
19 posted on 08/31/2007 7:37:49 PM PDT by Prophet in the wilderness (PSALM hath said in his heart , There is no GOD .53 : 1 The FOOL)
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To: RBroadfoot

I prefer not to play around with that stuff too much. It’s dangerous. A few quarts of the stuff can blow the roof off your kitchen.

If you really want to make a lot of hydrogen in a much cleaner non- messy chemical way, just use some stainless steel plates put them in a bucket, Add some salt water, and use about 12 volts @ about a half amp or so. Use a lid and a tube to collect the gas.

Carefull of sparks. Or better yet, don’t mess around with that stuff unless you really know what your doing and make a proper gas generator.


20 posted on 08/31/2007 7:46:26 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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