Posted on 08/25/2007 10:58:07 PM PDT by darrylsharratt
BTTT. Prayers continuing for these heroes.
Not a bit. They are all the more heroic because they have had to fight THIS BS battle on top of what they had to do in Iraq.
BTTT
.
‘Hillary wants America to lose, Vietnam Style’
HILLARY RODHAM’s support of our terrorist Enemy Communist North Vietnam’s push to take over a then Free South Vietnam during the Vietnam War horridly brought:
Pictures of a vietnamese Re-Education (SLAVE LABOR) Camp
http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308949/posts
http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1806248/posts
.
What price is there for the still Free to pay now (that’s US),
with HILLARY RODHAM again sitting in our Oval Office...
...in a new time of war
...in a new century
...with our own Freedom
...directly at stake
...right here at home..?
.
> What price is there for the still Free to pay now (that’s US),
Ronnie, we know the answer to that question, and it is tragic.
It is the same price that your Brothers-in-Arms at Ia Drang paid, when led by Gen Moore and CSM Plumley and Rick Rescorla, you and your mates ventured into Harm’s Way, roaring in on Helicopters with machine guns blazing, for the cause of Liberty and Freedom for the people of Vietnam and security for the West.
Forty-odd years on, we still have not learned, as a Society, so this price will be paid again, by this next generation whose grandfathers fought in the steamy jungles and behind the anthills of way-back-when.
It is the curse of our Species that we do not learn.
It is enough to make a grown man weep.
I have said it before, and I will say it again: thankyou to you and your mates for your Service. You are my heroes. At least my generation was kept safe by yours, and we owe you much more than what we can repay. It was not in vain, and we will never forget.
Kia Kaha
*DieHard*
From -
“By his own account, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich told his junior Marines to shoot first and ask questions later as they assaulted several houses in Haditha, Iraq, killing the occupants with grenades and gunfire.”
Shoot first and ask questions later ?
Is this a command squad leaders are trained to use ?
Wuterich told investigators in February last year that he believed he was taking small-arms fire from a house close to the explosion so he told a four-man team to treat the building and its occupants as hostile, meaning they did not need to identify the occupants as being insurgents before opening fire."I told them to shoot first, ask questions later," he told investigators.
According to the Rules of Engagement, if he perceived a threat particularly small arms fire from that house he was well within the rules taught to him to attack it in that manner.
“meaning they did not need to identify the occupants as being insurgents before opening fire.”
Them not NEEDING to identify them as insurgents before opening fire means the same as an order to kill everyone, even if they are surrendering ?
Is there a rule of engagement these days that orders soldiers to “take no prisoners” ?
You do understand the term “engagement” as applied to rules of?
If you are fired upon you may engage that target with deadly force meaning that they did not need to identify who was firing at them, only that they were being fired upon.
Since they had already been ambushed and were being fired upon to do anything less then fight back would have been suicidal.
No One was surrendering.
“Since they had already been ambushed and were being fired upon to do anything less then fight back would have been suicidal.”
You’re not looking at the details are you ? Wuterich, in his FIRST combat experience, says he BELIEVED he was being fired upon. He dosen’t say anyone WAS being fired upon.
I don’t believe that anyone so far has testified that they were fired upon.
From - http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2937547520070831?pageNumber=2
“At the next house, Mendoza said, Wuterich knocked on the front door and said, “Just wait until he opens the door and shoot.” Knock on the front door of a house where you believe you are being “engaged” from ?
By his own words ... he shot first, now it’s later and the questions are being asked.
It is absolutely amazing how you are going out of your way to prove that a Staff Sergeant would somehow lose all his faculties and abandon his training based upon the one witness that has already been proven to be non credible because of the widely varying testimonies he has given so far.
Mendoza is under the very real threat of deportation of his family if he doesn’t say what the NCIS wants him to say. His testimony to date has been questionable and contradictory enough so that the IO dismissed it previously, and yet you drag it out as if it were the gospel truth and infallible.
“and yet you drag it out as if it were the gospel truth and infallible.”
Strange how you think that everything that Wuterich says is gospel truth and infallible ... Just what is it in his background or experience that would cause you to think that ?
So all these NCIS folks are abandoning their training and principles and put their own careers on the line just to put this guy away ?
Strange how you think that everything that Wuterich says is gospel truth and infallible ... Just what is it in his background or experience that would cause you to think that ?
Do you not accept that he said "Shoot First and ask questions later" as the gospel truth of what he said?
Why do I believe he is capable of making Command decisions under the duress of Combat, that is fairly simple to understand... He is a Staff Sergeant of Marines a senior NCO whose Combat hardened troops choose to obey his orders because they knew that he would keep them alive.
And more importantly The United States Marine Corps Made him a Staff Sergeant without any reservation as to his character, it is a rank not easily earned. That's why.
“And more importantly The United States Marine Corps Made him a Staff Sergeant without any reservation as to his character, it is a rank not easily earned. That’s why.”
OK - but all the other Marines and officers that disagree with his assesment of the situation you don’t believe ... these truely combat hardened soldiers are liars, for whatever reason.
It was reported that this was his FIRST actual combat situation correct ?
Do you agree that it is correct combat procedure to simply knock on the door of a house that you are supposedly engaged with -— then blindly shoot anyone, insurgent, civilian, man, woman or child who answers it ?
IF this happened as reported, and it does correspond with his “shoot first” cammand, do you agree with it ?
OK - but all the other Marines and officers that disagree with his assesment of the situation you don’t believe ... these truely combat hardened soldiers are liars, for whatever reason.
That's a pretty Big "ALL". Have you canvased all living Marine Officers and enlisted men on active duty and non active as to their opinions. As I see it only two Marines in this case are actually lying, and both have very good reasons to lie.
Do you agree that it is correct combat procedure to simply knock on the door of a house that you are supposedly engaged with -— then blindly shoot anyone, insurgent, civilian, man, woman or child who answers it ?
You used the word engaged meaning in this case attacking, That is what Marines do, they attack and they kill people, especially people that are trying to kill them and are armed. Marines are not Cops, Their rules of engagement are such that they know when they can use all the force necessary to kill the enemy and destroy anything and anyone that is giving the enemy cover or support.
We don't even have to debate weather or not these Marines had been attacked they already had one vehicle destroyed One Marine killed and two others wounded before they took action to defend themselves, I'd say that under those circumstances they were justified to attack these houses where the insurgents were hiding in.
Later on that day during this battle when some of these same insurgents were surrounded in a near by house less than a mile from the original attack, Marines Dropped a 500 pound guided bomb on the house, should they have knocked first as well BEFORE DESTROYING THE HOUSE AND ANYONE INSIDE IT?
Then you're not even following the case at all. There has been ample testimony that this was a coordinated ambush, that the Marines received small arms fire after the IED was exploded.
I'll never understand why people such as yourself just pontificate wildly without even bothering to acquaint themselves with the basic facts of the case.
The devil made me do it.
“That’s a pretty Big “ALL”. Have you canvased all living Marine Officers and enlisted men on active duty and non active as to their opinions. “
Don’t be absurd - I’m talking of those involved in this case.
“You used the word engaged meaning in this case attacking,”
No, I used the word engaged in the way you defined it upthread - “You do understand the term “engagement” as applied to rules of? If you are fired upon you may engage that target with deadly force “
I don’t see anything that says they were fired upon by anyone in that house. If they WERE being fired upon from that house, I would suspect they would not simply walk up and knock on the door.
“I’d say that under those circumstances they were justified to attack these houses where the insurgents were hiding in.”
Well that’s the key isn’t it ? If he was being attacked from those houses there would be no question. He is on trial as it seems that he simply decided to kill everyone around and clear the nearest houses ... shoot first and ask questions later.
This account - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/10/AR2006061001129_3.html - tells a different story regarding house 1 & 2 , where noone SAW any insurgents go into house 2 ( the Knock and Shoot ) nor does it say they received any fire from it. But they did kill everyone they found in it.
“Although it was almost immediately apparent to the Marines that the people dead in the room ( house 1 ) were men, women and children — most likely civilians — they also noticed a back door ajar and believed that insurgents had slipped through to a house nearby, Puckett said. The Marines stealthily moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using a frag grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people, he said.
Wuterich, not having found the insurgents, ...’”
“Later on that day during this battle when some of these same insurgents were surrounded in a near by house less than a mile from the original attack, “
Same insurgents ? Thought the ones in house 3 & 4 were the “same insurgents” ?
Taking fire from a house and calling in an airstrike is much different then seeing a back door ajar and deciding that everyone in the nearest house should be killed.
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