Posted on 08/23/2007 11:02:38 PM PDT by monomaniac
What did Jesus talk about?
lol, thanks for the correction.
What do you expect from a Muggle?
Here are a few words of Jesus Christ that could be used to describe some members of the so-called religious right, those who set themselves, instead of Christ, as the arbiters of piety and the judges of the hearts of other human beings:
“All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteris and lengthen their tassels. They love place of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation, ‘Rabbi.’
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity...on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.”
Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious establishment of his day, and partied with common people. He taught us to love and to be very careful in judging others. He told us that we are be forgiven by God in the same measure that we forgive others.
Back to the gist of this thread—I think those religious leaders who have been so quick to judge Rowling and to assume they knew her heart, her character and her intentions in the writing of her books owe her a big, and I do mean big, apology. Not that I’m holding my breath.
Though I'm sure you already know what Jesus talked about, we can go through it if you'd like.
The context of the Gospels often seems to depend on the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees, whose concern for rules and forms caused them to miss the real point of God's message. Jesus tried again and again to set them straight ... Confess and repent. Love God and your neighbor. Care for the poor, widows, and orphans. Become "obedient to death even death on a cross!"
The author of this wretched screed sounds exactly like a Pharisee. "Yeah," he seems to say, "all of Rowling's good guys exhibit the Christian virtues of love, self-sacrifice, servanthood, care for the opressed, etc. And all of her bad guys are servants of evil. BUT...."
And with that begins the rant above, which more than anything else shows O'Brien is more beholden to his theology than in reading the message Rowling is really sending.
O'Brien seems to have forgotten this little nugget:
Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." (Luke 9:49-50)
The maniac never defends of replies to its threads. It doesn’t seem to recognize that it loses all credibility when it acts....creepy!
You'd have to give me a specific example of the "hypocrisy" of the "religous right" to make your "analogy" stick. To make a credible comparison to the Pharisees, you'd have to give me a specific incident of someone you consider to be part of the "religious right" denying the deity of Christ, telling people to disregard His commandments, and instructing people to deny Him as Savior.
Make sure you get examples from the actual "religious right". Of course, that could be difficult, as the "religious right" appears to be anyone who dares to be critical of secular fads and popular culture.
Get back to me with credible examples of the "religious right" behaving like real Pharisees, and we'll talk.
Absolutely. Lets go through it.
John 15:18-23
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also.
Matthew 10:34
34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Matthew 5:13-16
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Mark 16:15
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
So, as we can see from the previous Scripture, Jesus said that those who believe in Him and follow Him would be hated, He repeatedly commanded those who know Him to be the salt of the earth, to preach the gospel to the world, to keep telling people about Him and what He did on the cross even when they don't want to hear it, and He said that He came to "bring a sword", not peace. While He commands individuals to love their enemies, to care for the poor, etc., by no stretch of the imagination does that mean that Christians are to remain silent in the face of that which could be seen as another skirmish in the culture war.
So if there are people, including JK Rowling, who get offended by the fact that some Christians criticize her work based on their Scriptual beliefs, rest assured that Jesus said that that kind of thing would happen and it comes as no surprise when those who call themselves "Christians" lash out at those who have the gall to present an opinion that calls into question the aforementioned claim of "Christianity."
The fact that Ms. Rowling referred to her critics as the "religious right" reveals much more about her than it does about those for whom she holds so much contempt. It's quite revealing, actually.
She referred to them as "the religious right," because the people who object to Harry Potter on relgious grounds seem almost always to come from exactly that group.
I will speak for myself, rather than Ms. Rowling, when I say that those like Mr. O'Brien, who fits neatly within characteristics of "the religious right," often seem closer to Pharisees than they do to the "hated ones" of whom Jesus spoke.
And yet, an honest reading of the HP books yields a much different conclusion to that propounded by Mr. O'Brien. He is so clearly wedded to his own opinion that Rowling is some sort of humanist or Gnostic, that he utterly fails to notice the almost blatant Christian symbolism, especially in the final book.
So, yeah, "religious right" applies to O'Brien, and his pretty ignorant screed serves to justify Rowling's commentary on them.
See post 86.
You can make various accusations against Mr. O'Brien, but trying to equate him with the Pharisees of Jesus' day is "ignorant", to put it in your words. The comparison has no basis in reality and therefore is invalid.
Jesus's argument with the Pharisees is neatly summed up in passages like this one:
And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
"'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
(Mark 7:6-9)
While it is true that the Pharisees rejected Jesus, their abiding sin was not their rejection, but rather why they rejected Him. They placed their own rules, pride, and position ahead of God's commandments. That they rejected Jesus in favor of their laws, was a consequence of their pridefulness. Hence, we have those many places where Jesus plays them off against God: "You say ...; But I say...."
To any honest reader of the series, O'Brien's characterization of the HP books is rather obviously skewed and inaccurate. Somehow he fails to see that the overall message of the HP books is in excellent agreement with what Christ Himself taught; and Rowling's heroes fight against enemies who personify the sins of man and devil alike. It is clear that O'Brien cares more about theological correctness (the tradition of men), than he does about what the books really say.
The "HP is against God" argument usually centers around the presence of witchcraft and sorcery in the books. The usual tactic is to drag out the Scriptural references to witchraft, rub them in our noses, and then stalk away. And in fact that's what O'Brien does here -- and in so doing, misses the message of the books. It reminds me of what Jesus told the Pharisees: You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (John 7:39-40)
No, HP is not Scripture, and we shouldn't lightly dismiss what Scripture says about witchraft. But at the same time, we shouldn't use a few passages, selectively chosen and interpreted, to reject a series of books, the whole central message of which reflect's Christ's teaching. To do so, is to fail in the same way the Pharisees did.
Nice try, but you’ll note in my post I was speaking specifically about SOME members of the religious right, those who set themselves up as judge and jury for the rest of us. They are modern-day Pharisees, attending to the letter of the law while ignoring its substance. By no means was I describing all Christians. In fact, I wasn’t describing any true Christians, because true Christians view others through a lens of love. They judge cautiously, with an eye toward correction rather than punishment. They give others the benefit of the doubt.
I am a devout Christian and a conservative Republican. I would be considered by most anybody to be a member of the “religious right,” although I, like others, dislike the phrase because of the bad reputation given us by some of our more vocal self-proclaimed leaders.
Those I was specifically referring to are those who have been so quick to judge Rowling and her books, many without even reading the books or taking any time to discern their content. I homeschool my children, and since I travel in conservative Christian circles, I have met more than my share of uptight, self-righteous, holier-than-thou prigs who need desperately to emulate their Savior by loving more and judging less.
At any rate, my description of the Pharisees was not inaccurate; the Scripture you posted confirms my description. As men who rejected Jesus as God, and participated in His death, they cannot possibly be equated with Mr. O'Brien, who merely published an opinion of a work of fiction. I see no hypocrisy in what he wrote at all.
And finally, I have read books one through five of the Harry Potter series, and to be honest, I see no reflection in them of anything Jesus said or taught. That is not to say that the books were not enjoyable; they were. But while you are disparaging Mr. O'Brien for what he wrote, you do the same thing in reverse when you atttempt to tie what is in the Harry Potter books with the commandments and teachings of Jesus.
The concept of good prevailing over evil has been used in stories for millenia. Rarely have any of the stories mentioned anything about man's fallen condition, his impending fate of eternal damnation apart from Jesus Christ, and the fact of one Savior, God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, being the only hope of mankind to escape the eternal judgment of God. That is the dominating reason for Jesus' time on earth, and there is no similarities whatsoever between the Harry Potter books and what Christ did for mankind on the Cross.
So when you refuse to allow your children to view a certain program on television, are you being judgmental and like the Pharisees in that your opinion is that the program is unsuitable for your children? Are you being hypocritical is acertaining that the contents of the program are not suitable for your children? Why do you get to have your opinion but those who disagree with you with regard to the Harry Potter books do not?
Why is mere criticism of these books by people, who, after all, are entitled to their opinion, considered blasphemy? Are the Harry Potter books some sort of sacred screed? Some sort of new books of the Bible?
Why are so many who call themselves "Christian" threatened by the opinions of other Christians? If the Harry Potter books are so Scripture-like, the way some on this thread have claimed, then the books will stand on their own merit, and will withstand criticism, without "Christians" slamming and ripping to shreds other Chistians who have the perfect right to critique the books according to their understanding of Scripure.
It just shouldn't be a problem.
The same one as the Pharisees: he clearly cares more for his theology (a tradition of men), than he cares for the underlying and very Christian message of the books.
As men who rejected Jesus as God, and participated in His death, they cannot possibly be equated with Mr. O'Brien, who merely published an opinion of a work of fiction. I see no hypocrisy in what he wrote at all.
Oh, come now. Mr. O'Brien did not "merely publish an opinion." He wrote this (and several other) screeds on why Christians should not read the books. If he is going to speak as an arbiter of Christian reading habits, his opinions should judged by the same criteria, don't you think?
And finally, I have read books one through five of the Harry Potter series, and to be honest, I see no reflection in them of anything Jesus said or taught.
Other, you mean, than love, self-sacrifice, care for the oppressed, opposition to wickedness, and things like that.... Aside from those teachings of Jesus, you mean? And your really need to read the final two books -- especially the last one. It will give you a perspective on the books that will help you to see where Rowling was headed the entire time.
That [man's fallen condition, etc.] is the dominating reason for Jesus' time on earth, and there is no similarities whatsoever between the Harry Potter books and what Christ did for mankind on the Cross.
And you see nothing about fallenness in the HP characters? And nothing about redemption, and the need of same. You're kidding, right?
I re-read the article and saw no theology but a lot of opinion, most of which Mr. O'Brien backs up with examples. When Mr. O'Brien says, for example, "Without neglecting the valid point that good fiction need not be overtly Christian, need not be religious at all, we might ponder a little the fact that the central metaphor and plot engines of the series are activities (witchcraft and sorcery) absolutely prohibited by God.", that is not a "theology of men", but absolute truth from the Word of God.
Mr. O'Brien's statement: "Such humanism cannot long survive without a "spirituality" of some kind or other - and what better spirituality for Homo Sine Deo than one which offers the thrills and rewards of the preternatural, without moral accountability to God" nails perfectly the fact that there is no mention of God in any of the books, and no "higher power" to which the characters have to answer. So far, I see no "theology of men" in the article, but a few unfortunate facts about the books.
Oh, come now. Mr. O'Brien did not "merely publish an opinion." He wrote this (and several other) screeds on why Christians should not read the books. If he is going to speak as an arbiter of Christian reading habits, his opinions should judged by the same criteria, don't you think?
It's a matter of perception as to whether Mr. O'Brien should be taken seriously or not. I am a Christian and Mr. O'Brien is not an arbiter of what I read; I choose for myself what I read. I am not threatened by Mr. O'Brien's opinion, and anyone who is has bigger issues than Mr. O'Brien's critical article about the Harry Potter series. It's my opinon that pornography that degrades and dehumanizes women should not exist; that is my opinion. Is that going to matter to anyone? Does the fact that I have an opinion make me an "arbiter" of what other people look at? Are people who read pornography threatened by my opinion? Does anyone care? Why the uproar over Mr. O'Brien's opinion?
Other, you mean, than love, self-sacrifice, care for the oppressed, opposition to wickedness, and things like that.... Aside from those teachings of Jesus, you mean? And your really need to read the final two books -- especially the last one. It will give you a perspective on the books that will help you to see where Rowling was headed the entire time.
Wiccans will profess to love, believe in self-sacrifice, will contribute to charities dedicated to caring for the poor, and sincerely consider themselves "opposed to wickedness". It's easy to be in favor of all those things- it's one of the easiest things on earth. Where in the books are the Christ-proclaimed truths of unregenerate man spending eternity banished from God, where in the books are the Christ-proclaimed truth that man is unable to save himself, where in the books is reflected the Chist-proclaimed truth that man must die to himself if he is to be Christ-like? Those truths, given to us by God, do not exist in the books. To get right down to it, the Harry Potter books are simply about some kids who are witches relying on their own wisdom, their own abilities, and their own supernatural powers to defeat other witches around them. The books in no way, shape, or form are anything remotely akin to the Holy Scriptures.
And you see nothing about fallenness in the HP characters? And nothing about redemption, and the need of same. You're kidding, right?
Who was the sinless, blameless, perfect character who represented God in the Harry Potter books? At what point does that character tell the others if they die without believing in his or her atoning death on a cross they will spend eternity apart from God?
There is "fallenness" in the books, but the fallen characters save themselves. They attend a "school for witches and witchcraft" to quote Ms. Rowling, they have to contend with witches who have embraced the actual occult instead of skating on the edge of it, and none of the fallen characters, including the "good" witches Harry, Herminone, and Ron, turn to any kind of Christ-like character to save them. They are responsible for their own salvation, and in the end, do not need anyone but themselves to save them. That, tragically, is the message in the books and it bears no resemblance at all to Biblical Christianity.
Literary criticism is perfectly acceptable. Literary criticism from a religious viewpoint is perfectly acceptable. Literary insanity and hyperbole to the nth degree is not. The author of this piece asserts, among other things, that Rowling has “killed God.” I don’t know about his god, but my God is much stronger than any fictional boy wizard.
O’Brien does much harm to his cause, indeed to all Christians’ common cause, which is attracting non-believers to our faith, by his ill-informed, over-the-top hyperventilating. He appears in this article to be exactly the sort of wild-eyed ignorant fanatic that the left believes all Christians to be. Way to perpetuate an unfair stereotype, O’Brien.
I’m not threatened by the informed opinions of other Christians. I am disgusted by the uninformed opinions of those who seek to deride without discernment. Since HP has been wildly successful and Rowling is rich beyond the dreams of avarice, it would appear that the strident accusations of the self-appointed Christian opinion makers hold little sway with the general public.
Is O’Brien entitled to his opinion? Of course, as are all the HP naysayers. And I’m equally entitled to wish they’d get a grip and stop making themselves and other Christians look ridiculous.
Sheesh! Take a week vacation and miss all the fun!
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