Posted on 08/11/2007 10:08:38 PM PDT by KerryOnNoMore
"We did decline to host the service _ not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle," Simons told The Associated Press. "Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it _ yes, we would have declined then. It's not that we didn't love the family." Simons said the decision had nothing to do with the obituary. He said the church offered to pay for another site for the service, made the video and provided food for more than 100 relatives and friends. "Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness," Simons said. Wright called the church's claim about the pictures "a bold-faced lie." She said she provided numerous family pictures of Sinclair, including some with his partner, but said none showed men kissing or hugging. The 5,000-member High Point Church was founded in 2000 by Simons and his wife, April, whose brother is Joel Osteen, well-known pastor of the 38,000-member Lakewood Church in Houston. Now High Point meets in a 432,000-square-foot facility in Arlington, near Dallas. Wright said relatives declined the church's offer to hold the service at a community center because they felt it was an inappropriate venue. It ultimately was held at a funeral home, but the cancellation still lingered in some minds, she said.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Why would members of a church, knowing that their relative had a sodomite partner, put this pressure on their pastors to begin with.
I take it the sodomite was not a member of the church. Why not ask for the memorial service to be held in the facilities of some organization to which the “man” himself belonged?
The pastor who would speak at such a memorial service, if it were to take place, SHOULD preach the Gospel, which includes the command to repent, and also make it clear that the dead “man” demonstrated no belief in what God said — if fact lived a lifestyle that denies belief in God’s Word, and therefore (we are not happy to report) the man is certainly not enjoying the presence of the Savior. He was a lost man, and is suffering torments. The pastor could use it as a method to admonish the congregation that God is real (Hebrews 1:1-8) and that sin is real (Romans chs 3, 5), death as the result of sin (Romans 6:23) is real, and Hell and judgment are as real as Heaven (Revelation chs. 19-22).
I do not not know the church, or the pastors. But the pastors are the ones to decide which gatherings they will or will not preside over, and for what reasons. They stand before God with their decisions. There is no decision here for anyone else to make.
“What a horrible post. You should be ashamed of yourself.”
Oh, get over yourself.
“they call themselves the “gay community” and I’m going to stick with term”
Thereby surrendering to the Father of Lies.
“Should my wife have called them whores instead of prostitutes?”
You know, you really need to use the old noggin more. You just said that one pejorative is to another as the truth is to euphemism.
“What separates you from me is that I want to bring these people to Christ.”
No, what separates us is your sanctimonious assumption that only you know the way to do that, have the desire to do that, and stand at no risk of being deceived by Old Scratch.
“For some reason, as far as I can glean from your posts, you hate them”
When I see someone make a statement like that, I see Satan’s influence. There is nothing in any of my posts that indicates the slightest particle of hatred for those who suffer for Same-Sex Attraction Disorder. Why, then, would you think you see it, except for the deceptive influence of the enemy?
“But it is ALSO a community with it’s own norms, cohesiveness, goals, boundaries (such as they are and aren’t) . . . etc.”
It is unconscionable to dignify them with the term “community.”
“And the Christians nearby smugly walk on by sanctimoniously proud that they don’t have THAT HORRID sin on their score card. While God MAY be considering their smug pride as WORSE.”
You know what sin I suspect is worse? Assuming that people who refuse to endorse sodomy are “smug” and “sanctimoniously proud.”
And worse yet would be using that tactic to try and browbeat people into silence on the issue.
Hellooooooo late comer.
Because I’m a MEMBER, bub...this gay guy was NOT A MEMBER.....what don’t you understand about he did NOT BELONG to that Church or ANY church.
INDEED!
And . . . in my experience and observations . . . when the situation exists where folks who call themselves by Christ's Name . . . persist in being proud . . . sooner or later . . .
God will allow/cause such folks to have to face their own need for a smelly diaper change . . . often enough in full view of everyone.
Then they discover that their used food smells as wonderful as everyone else's and is not very much fun to finger paint with after all.
Sometimes, at that point, humility sets in.
Many times, in particularly proud and stubborn cases, many refresher courses and advanced courses are necessary.
At some point, the rather pummeled pretend saints and/or just slower learning saints like I've been in some areas . . . have to learn more experientially, vividly and on various technicolor bill boards for all to see . . . what their evidently shattered mirrors failed to show . . .
vis a vis . . . that even their best works of righteousness were no better than used . . . . blood-stained . . . rags in the sight of God.
Then we begin to get down to the nitty gritty of humility.
When one sees that . . . while God may rank some sexual sins as more seriously destructive to the spirit, body and life of the sinner . . . ANY sin is hell-damning and more than sufficient to distance us from God.
When one really begins to get a bone marrow grasp of that . . . there is no room for haughtiness toward any other sinner. Haughtiness becomes as revulsion stimulating as . . . some of the horrid acting out at a gay pride parade.
Actually, I suspect that some of the SUNDAY PARADE (particularly when compared to the MONDAY CUT-THROAT BUSINESS AS USUAL) is at least as much of a stench in God's sight as the gay pride parade . . . exposures and exhibitionist episodes are.
What's worse to God . . . flaunting one's genitals or flaunting one's sanctimonious self-righteousness as being so much better than THOSE . . . UGH . . . SERFS . . . OVER !!!THERE!!!
Satan didn't get kicked out of heaven for his fondling a brother angel. He got kicked out for . . . perhaps it could be said . . . a kind of pernicious spiritual pride . . . leading quickly to rebellion.
Rebellion, idolatry . . . heavy duty stuff regardless of the focus.
Heavy duty stench.
I'm reminded of a significant number of visitors to Heaven . . . who'ver reported how many prostitutes were routinely allowed in the Throne Room with Almighty God--a relatively rare privilege, evidently, according to some sort of . . . levels of purity of heart or utter devotion to God or some such . . .
And how few religious leaders were there.
In my experience . . . . folks refuse to hold homosexuals physicially, emotionally, spiritually close . . . particularly men . . . out of fear over their own sexuality and/or what SOMEONE MIGHT THINK about their own sexuality and/or selfish priggishness refusing to stoop low enough to help lift someone "lower" than they to a higher spiritual level. I'm sure God is quite impressed with such bravery.
I actually believe a lot of teens end up trapped in homosexuality because, certainly their fathers, failed to love them in healthy ways sufficiently physically--research is quite clear about that--and no other males in the church stepped up to the plate to make up for daddy's failures in such regards.
And such men are foolish if they think God will not hold them accountable for knowing to do good and doing it not. Many are ignorant, true. Many are not. Many may not know all the details consciously or put it in the most articulated rationale. But they know that things are lacking, askew and they refuse to step up to the plate.
But I'm sure those same men would be eager and quick to castigate the horrid homosexuals--especially at the end of very long and pointy fingers.
They may be surprised at the reaping such sowing of long pointy fingers triggers.
Yeah, homosexuality pushes a lot of emotional buttons for a lot of people.
Amazing that Christians can get more emotional
over:
1. football
2. castigating those HORRIBLY WORSE SINNERS OVER !!!THERE!!!
3. gossip
4. self-righteousness
5. pride
6. fears
. . .
than they can or often do over
1. God’s Love,
2. God’s Grace,
3. God’s patient long suffering nature with THEM
4. God’s Forgiveness,
5. God’s Mercy,
6. God’s Kindness,
7. God’s meticulous leading them out of horrid habits and sins . . .
Not sure who your accusing of what assumptions.
My comments have been rather Scriptural in context, principle, fact, attitude, goal.
It is unconscionable to dignify them with the term “community.”
Perhaps not to a sociologist. They are, technically, factually, a community. I don't recall in Scripture where God said that all communities were sacred. Actually, IIRC, there's a Scripture that refers to a community of satan.
Methinks your seeming sanctimony is more than a little too starchy, prickly and . . . maybe even hollow.
“And the Christians nearby smugly walk on by sanctimoniously proud that they don’t have THAT HORRID sin on their score card. While God MAY be considering their smug pride as WORSE.”
You know what sin I suspect is worse? Assuming that people who refuse to endorse sodomy are “smug” and “sanctimoniously proud.”
WRONG ASSUMPTION on your part.
I merely assumed that folks who wrote with proud, sanctimonious wors and phrasings in proud and sanctimonious tones rather repeatedly, loudly, insistently, harshly . . . were probably . . . like they DEMONSTRATED . . . more than a little sanctimonious and proud. Had NOTHING to do with whether they could or couldn't tolerate homosexuals and their behaviors.
And worse yet would be using that tactic to try and browbeat people into silence on the issue.
More seemingly self-righteous, haughty,
AND WHOLESALE WRONG ASSUMPTIVE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS . . .
I have no need to browbeat folksinto anything, much less silence on an issue that I think needs plenty of vigorous Christian assertiveness, publicity and Biblical declarations.
TRY AGAIN . . . this time with . . . more accurate feeling and analysis.
Truly, any thing or any one we cherish at the same level or higher than God is an idol.
“TRY AGAIN . . . this time with . . . more accurate feeling and analysis.”
No need. I was right on target the first time. The only “proud, sanctimonious wors and phrasings in proud and sanctimonious tones” — and now even in color — have been yours. The only assumptions have been yours.
Your purpose is to shift the focus of the argument from the issue — same-sex attraction disorder — to the character of those who oppose your position. I don’t care to play that game.
“But I’m sure those same men would be eager and quick to castigate the horrid homosexuals—especially at the end of very long and pointy fingers.”
Oh, yes, you are so very, very certain that those who disagree with you are morally reprobate in so many, many ways. I wish I had your gift of looking into peoples’ hearts, particularly over the Internet.
I’m sure God looks upon you with great pleasure. You must be His pet, being so much superior to the rest of us.
The church was upholding it’s principles about morality, not legality, and it still helped the family to have a service elsewhere. We don’t even know that the deceased would have wanted a church service. It’s hardly a good reflection on the family that they accepted the church’s help and money and then complained about it.
Again, how do you know? You know the actions of his earlier life but you do not know whether he made peace with God.
This church missed an opportunity to share the gospel with people who desperately needed to hear it. That's a fact that you do not want to accept. The people who made the decision not to share the gospel will have to answer to God for it.
There is plenty in your posts that shows you have a special hatred of the sin of homosexuality and you know it. I understand. It's not natural and it's disgusting. But remember that the woman at the well was an outcast because she was Samaritan and even more of an outcast because of her life. Yet, Jesus brought the good news to the entire village through her. Why are you not to do what Jesus did?
Answer this: it's a yes or no question. Would you be okay with the church hosting a funeral service for the man if he were an alcoholic or had cheated on his income taxes and you weren't sure whether he was a Christian but you weren't sure whether he wasn't either?
Did you even read the article? The church was perfectly willing to give him a funeral fully knowing that he was not a member. They pulled the plug when they found it he was gay.
Get off your membership kick because it has nothing to do with the story.
If this man had been a church member, then they should have held his memorial but talked to his family about the care that needed to be taken about talking about his life. The article says that they knew he was gay. If that’s true, then they should not have agreed to hold the memorial. If they knew and then they offered his family that service, they should have carried through with it. His homosexual partner should never have been acknowledged in the service, though. It’s a difficult issue. If he was a member of their congregation and was known to be living in sin, then he should have been ex-communicated if he was not working with them to get out of his sinful lifestyle. A sad issue for the church to deal with. Even sadder that people are consciously choosing to live in sin.
Actually, it’s not a greater sin. The Bible never says that. ALL sin is actually a consequence of the same root sin—placing personal will over God’s stated will.
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