Yes, Romney needs to answer questions about his religion

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | August 7, 2007 | Dick Polman

[greyfoxx39]

Mitt Romney's own Republican Party has made religion fair game, and Romney will be asked how his faith would affect his policies.

-SNIP-

But Mitt Romney is a serious contender in 2008, rich and disciplined, and he's running in an era when presidential candidates are virtually expected to parade their religiosity. This is particularly true in the Republican camp, where religion and politics are now routinely intertwined; indeed, candidate George W. Bush upped the ante in 2000, when he said that his favorite philosopher was Jesus, ''because he changed my life.''

So it's no surprise Romney is facing questions about his lifelong devotion to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the breakaway theology that considers itself humankind's ''one true church.'' He had hoped to stonewall this issue, insisting in a TV interview 18 months ago that ''I'm never going to get into a discussion about my personal beliefs.''

But today word is circulating that Romney will discuss his faith in an autumn speech - and seek to disarm the skeptics much the way John F. Kennedy in 1960 dampened fears that a Catholic president would take orders from Rome.

Romney is dealing with potential hostility, fair or not, on several fronts. Many Christian fundamentalists, particularly southern Baptists, dismiss Mormonism as a cult (thereby imperiling Romney in the GOP primaries, particularly in pivotal South Carolina). Many secular voters are uncomfortable with the church's passion for proselytizing and its superior attitude, particularly its scriptural insistence that all nonbelievers are worshiping ''the church of the devil.'' Pollsters say that at least 30 percent of voters won't back a Mormon.

Romney's biggest problem is that skeptics are simply weirded out. They cannot quite envision having a president who believes that a man named Joseph Smith dug up a book of golden plates, long buried in a hillside, with the help of an angel named Moroni in 1827; that these plates, written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, spelled out the precepts of the true Christian faith; that Smith translated these hieroglyphics by wearing decoder glasses and burying his head in a hat; that Jesus visited North America after the resurrection; that the Garden of Eden was really in Missouri.

-SNIP-

Some questions do seem appropriate. First, the Mormon faith puts a high premium on ''faith-promoting'' information, sometimes at the expense of unpleasant facts. As a high-ranking Mormon leader said in a famous 1981 speech, ''Some things that are true are not very useful.'' Would Romney be able to assure swing voters that he would not merely perpetuate the faith-based thinking, and the rejection of empirical reality, that has trapped us in a ruinous war?

Second, since the Mormons consider themselves stewards of ''a quintessentially American faith'' (Romney's words), and since Mormons believe Jesus will return and rule the world from U.S. territory, does this suggest that a President Romney might wave the flag a bit too fervently, at a time when we need to repair our relations around the world? The Mormon faith is heavily rooted in what is commonly called ''American exceptionalism,'' the belief that we are special and we know best. Would Romney govern accordingly, and, if so, would that be a help or a hindrance in the war on terror?

-SNIP-

What matters, in other words, is not whether he really thinks Joseph Smith met an angel in 1827. The crucial issue is whether, or how, a devout Mormon would apply his faith on the job in 2009. His supporters have suggested that any such questions are symptoms of religious bigotry, but it is the Republican Party, over the past several decades, that has put religion front and center. They have made Mitt Romney fair game.

[tantiboh]

DU, I knew it! You’re a closet Romney supporter, aren’t you? MHGinTN here says you’ve got to be!

Come on, now, fess up! You’re just engaged in a clever diversion tactic, supporting Fred Thompson openly while secretly and cleverly propping up Romney’s campaign by trying to silence critics of your faith. We’ve got your number!

[DelphiUser]

We’ve got your number!

The Ultimate Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything - 42 /obscure movie or book reference

Funny, MHG's I won't ping you tactic just means I never saw this until you posted to me about it, then again, that's why MHG breaks the rules, he hopes to say stuff and never get called on it, it's really quite juvenile (sniffs loudly, and self importantly) I mean really, such behavior!

Thanks tantiboh for pinging me to this impugning of my political character, grin.

JFTR(n00b def - Just For The Record) I am a Mormon who is not for Mitt Romeny, but not because of his religion, it's because he is not conservative enough. I am pulling (and I hope not quietly for Fred Thompson. I have looked at what this man has done and he is as close to the ideal conservative as we've got running, so he's my man.)

For me it's important that he have a religion, and that it be one that teaches him to be honorable and to keep his word, beyond that I think religious tests are stupid.

I post on these threads because there are many who will say anything to make Mormons look bad, often their posts are unsupportable, they even try to speak for us and tell others what we believe (when they either don't really know, or lie because they think they know better than we do what we believe). This causes me to post on these threads because I can't take the disinformation coming from what is generally a good source of information. If you want to know what someone believes, ask them, it's quite simple, if you ask someone else, what you get is their opinion about what someone else believes, for they are not a believer.

IMHO, all posts about a religion, that are not posted by an adherent, and can not be sourced back to an unimpeachable source (have the refrences BEFORE you post) should start with IMHO, or I believe, or I think, you get the idea. Anything else is prevarication. /Rant

[MHGinTN]

I've been reported to the moderator for posting to Delphi User, so this is not posted to DU, it's just all about him and his fellow Mormonism Apologists.

DU asserted, "I post on these threads because 1)there are many who will say anything to make Mormons look bad, 2) often their posts are unsupportable, 3) they even try to speak for us and tell others what we believe ..."

1) There is a recognizable agenda by Mormon (the individuals, not the religion the 'ism') Romney operatives to portray any opposition to the heresies in Mormonism as attacking the individual adherents of that anti-Christian Orthodoxy cult, so this specious claim is part of the same agenda/methodology;

2) The supposed unsupportable assertions are very often sourced in LDS documents found on the Internet: example, Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible to insert his fabricated prophesies of his coming 'in these latter days' (see for one quick example the additional hundreds of words at the end of Chapter 50 Book of Genesis, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/contents)

3) People can read the source materials from LDs sites to show this specious claim is unfounded since the foundational tenets of Mormonism are clearly written and available on the INternet. But people like the poster want to portray all posts informing on Mormonism that are not from Mormons (the individuals) as flawed ... aside from the stupid assumption that just being an adherent insures the poster is 100% accurate and honest in informing others on Mormonism, the absurdity is easy illustrated with the famous couplet taught to Mormonism adherents yet dissembled at FR as if it doesn't portray what this cult believes: "As man is God once was. As God is now we may become." (Answer to this heresy is in Isaiah 43:10&11)

Below is a chart to illustrate the major diversions of Mormonism away from Christianity; just posting this chart is called attacking Mormons (the individuals, not the 'ism'):

The defintion of words in a dictionary changes based on changes in usage in the culture.

 

Yup...

---

Mormon versus Christian definitions

 

Word...	Mormon	Christian
Atonement	(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people.  By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him.  In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned).  This will happen at Judgment Day.  Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father.  Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father.  (2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins.  But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back.  For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12.	Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world.  Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.  1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.  Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven.
Bible	One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith).  They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28).  Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures.  Many Mormons are not familiar with it.	The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation	Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression.	The consequence of unbelief.  Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
Eternal Life (Exaltation)	Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation.  "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72).  Eternal life  is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom.  Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life.  This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children.	By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith	(1)  The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism).  (2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56).  The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him.  "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).	The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven.  Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness	Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.	The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift	Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'.  The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness.  The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'.  Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings).  Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift.   Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.	A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel	A term that refers to Mormonism in general.  Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation.  "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176).	The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
Grace	The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own.  "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).  "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).  This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection.	The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.  Ephesians 2:8-9:  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven	Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.  Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven.   "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man.  It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166).  Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness.  "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19).	God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him.  Revelations 21:3-4:  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell	(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day.  "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165).  (2)  The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell.  (3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness.  Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.	Satan's domain of unending torment.  Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’  All unbelievers will be cast into hell.  Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification	Unfamiliar term to most Mormons.  Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions.  In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong.	God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".	Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'.  When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed.  The entire debt still remains to be paid!	When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance	"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123. The Mormon definition includes:   1) sorrow for your sins.   2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin.   3) confessing each sin.   4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed.   5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you.   6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection].   7) perform works to make up for the sin.   8) there can be no repentance without punishment.   9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again! Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125.  Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224.  Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3. From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith: True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.  Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.	Literally, a change of mind.  A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you.  Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption	Synonymous with atonement.	Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin.  See atonement.
Salvation	(1)  For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day.  This is the only free gift in Mormonism.  This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone.  They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected.  However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation).  That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation.  Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom.  Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work.  And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it.  (2)  Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation).	The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification	A term not commonly used in Mormonism.  They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin.	(1)  Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified).  This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth.  (2)  While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy).  (3)  The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin	A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin.  "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117).  Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments.	Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed.  Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc.  Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation	In general, Mormonism.   Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage.  All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.	God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life).  John 3:14-17:  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

163 posted on 08/09/2007 12:57:18 PM EDT by Elsie

[Elsie]

The defintion of words in a dictionary changes based on changes in usage in the culture.

 

Yup...

---

Mormon versus Christian definitions

 

Word...	Mormon	Christian
Atonement	(1) Used almost exclusively as a reference to Jesus' conquering physical death for all people.  By conquering physical death, Jesus made it possible for all people to enter again into the presence of Heavenly Father - if for no other reason than to be judged by him.  In other words, they are again 'at-one' with him (atoned).  This will happen at Judgment Day.  Those who have earned it will live in the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father.  Everyone else will live outside of the presence of Heavenly Father.  (2) At times atonement includes the thought of Jesus' paying for people's sins.  But underlying all such references is the thought that they have to pay him back.  For a good example of the LDS view of Jesus' atoning work, see Gospel Principles chapter 12.	Jesus' complete payment, made once, for all the sins of all the people of the entire world.  Hebrews 7:27: Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.  1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.  Through faith in Jesus' payment, we are given eternal life in heaven.
Bible	One of four books Mormons consider scripture. They believe it to be the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly" (Eighth Article of Faith).  They believe many precious parts have been lost from it (1 Nephi 13:28).  Consequently they consider it the least reliable of the scriptures.  Many Mormons are not familiar with it.	The inspired, complete and inerrant Word of God.
Damnation	Mormon's Plan of Salvation outlines an intricate process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Anything that stops a person in their progression, such as dying without having a celestial marriage, is considered damnation as it blocks or dams their progression.	The consequence of unbelief.  Unbelief results in damnation, that is, suffering eternal punishment in hell.
Eternal Life (Exaltation)	Living eternally as a god, synonymous with godhood and exaltation.  "Exaltation means the same thing as eternal life" (Learn of Me, p. 72).  Eternal life  is reserved for those who attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom.  Mormons must become perfect, have received their endowment, and been married in the temple (Celestial Marriage) before they can earn eternal life.  This eternal life will be lived both with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom and as god over their own world which they will populate with their own children.	By faith in Jesus' payment for our sins, we are given the gift of eternal life living with God in heaven as his children.
Faith	(1)  The belief that God exists and has given a good plan of salvation (Mormonism).  (2) The power God gives Mormons whereby they can resist sin and become perfect. "But he must believe the truth, obey the truth, and practice the truth, to obtain the power of God called faith" (Past Living Prophet and President Brigham Young quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church Brigham Young p. 56).  The more righteous a person is, the more power (faith) God will give him.  "To those who have not begun the quest of comprehension, the word faith appears to be only a synonym for a kind of belief or conviction....It is a principle of power" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 82).	The sure hope of our deliverance from death to eternal life in heaven.  Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness	Must be earned through what may be "weeks, years, or centuries" of effort. To be forgiven of a sin, one must meet the demands of the LDS definition of repentance for that sin. God 'remembers' the original sin and you lose your forgiveness if you recommit the sin.	The undeserved gift of having your sins separated from you "as far as the east is from the west". Because Jesus paid our penalty as our substitute, we are considered guiltless by God. God does not remember our sins.
Gift	Mormonism has expanded the definition of the term 'gift'.  The expanded definition includes as 'gifts' things which are rewarded to an individual only after first completing certain requirements or first demonstrating sufficient worthiness.  The expanded definition also includes as 'gifts' things which once received, obligate the receiver to a set of conditions; which, if broken revoke the 'gift'.  Most 'gifts' in Mormonism actually fall under the expanded part of the Mormon definition (eternal life, grace, forgiveness, the help of the Holy Ghost, most of God's many blessings).  Mormon doctrine goes so far as to say that God is 'obligated' to give a particular 'gift' once the prescribed prerequisites have been achieved by the receiver of the gift.   Most of the 'gifts' of Mormonism are not gifts but rewards, compensation, obligatory payments, and contracts.	A gift is something we receive which is undeserved, unearned, offered freely by the bestower.
Gospel	A term that refers to Mormonism in general.  Or in particular, Mormonism's intricate plan of salvation.  "Mormonism so-called - which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew this day" (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 176).	The "Good News" of free and full salvation (eternal life with God in heaven) won for mankind by Jesus Christ.
Grace	The power God gives people to save themselves, conditional on their earning it by doing all they can do on their own.  "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).  "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).  This grace does not directly provide them with eternal life, but rather with the power to make up the difference between "all they can do" and perfection.	The unconditional, free gift of eternal life given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.  Ephesians 2:8-9:  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Heaven	Any of the three kingdoms Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.  Life even on the lowest kingdom will be much better than earth, and even the vilest of unbelievers will receive a life in heaven.   "The book (Doctrine and Covenants) explains clearly that the lowest glory to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man.  It is a doctrine fundamental in Mormonism that the meanest sinner, in the final judgment, will receive a glory which is beyond human understanding, which is go great that we are unable to describe it adequately." (John A. Widtsoe, quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 166).  Yet, even in the highest kingdom all but those who have earned exaltation will have less than complete happiness.  "How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity!" (Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 19).	God's glorious home, where all who believed in Jesus' saving work will live forever happy with him.  Revelations 21:3-4:  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.".
Hell	(1) Not a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day.  "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of resurrection is called hell....Hell will have an end" (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, p. 165).  (2)  The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom is described in Mormon literature as a kind of hell.  (3) Mormons call Satan's domain Outer Darkness.  Only those who leave the LDS church are sent to Outer Darkness.	Satan's domain of unending torment.  Mark 9:47-48: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’  All unbelievers will be cast into hell.  Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Justification	Unfamiliar term to most Mormons.  Mormonism describes it as God's strict confirmation of the merits or demerits of man's own actions.  In other words, LDS justification is God's act of rewarding people on their own actions, rewarding right and punishing wrong.	God declares us (believers) not guilty on the basis of Christ's atoning work.
Paid - As in "Jesus paid for my sins".	Mormonism uses the word 'paid' as a synonym for 'refinanced'.  When a Mormon says "Jesus paid for my sins", he does not mean that he no longer owes the debt of sin, merely that the creditor and the terms have changed.  The entire debt still remains to be paid!	When a Christian says "Jesus paid for my sins", he means that his entire payment for all his sins has been made, no more debt remains, no further payment is due or could even be made.
Repentance	"It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness quoted in Gospel Principles, page 123. The Mormon definition includes:   1) sorrow for your sins.   2) abandoning [never again committing] each and every sin.   3) confessing each sin.   4) restitution, as far as it is possible, for every sin ever committed.   5) freely forgive anyone who ever sinned against you.   6) obedience to all of God's other commands [in essence - perfection].   7) perform works to make up for the sin.   8) there can be no repentance without punishment.   9) you will not even desire to commit the sin again! Points 1-7 referenced in Gospel Principles, pages 124-125.  Point 8 referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 224.  Point 9 referenced in Missionary Discussions, page 2-14 / Study Guide 2, page 3. From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith: True repentance is not only sorrow for sins, and humble penitence and contrition before God, but it involves the necessity of turning away from them, a discontinuance of all evil practices and deeds, a thorough reformation of life, a vital change from evil to good, from vice to virtue, from darkness to light.  Not only so, but to make restitution, so far as it is possible, for all the wrongs we have done, to pay our debts, and restore to God and man their rights - that which is due to them from us.	Literally, a change of mind.  A turning of one's heart from trust in yourself and your works to trust in Jesus and his work for you.  Such a change of heart will result in sorrow for one's sins and a humble attitude of following God's will.
Redemption	Synonymous with atonement.	Christ bought all mankind back (redeemed) from the wages of our sin.  See atonement.
Salvation	(1)  For most Mormons this is equivalent to physical resurrection, the reuniting of body and soul on Judgment Day.  This is the only free gift in Mormonism.  This is why many can say they believe they are saved by Jesus alone.  They mean that they believe they don't have to do anything to be resurrected.  However, this salvation does not grant eternal life (exaltation).  That is based on their successful completion of their plan of salvation.  Mormonism states that if one makes no effort and is an unbeliever he / she will still be resurrected and assigned a place in the lowest kingdom.  Therefore, a Mormon can say that a person is granted heaven solely on Jesus' atoning work.  And that person need not even believe in Jesus to attain it.  (2)  Sometimes 'salvation' is used as a synonym for exaltation, as in "Plan of Salvation" (actually the plan of exaltation).	The free gift of eternal life in heaven with God given us through faith in Jesus' saving work.
Sanctification	A term not commonly used in Mormonism.  They use it to refer to a state of saintliness which is obtained as people purify themselves by overcoming sin.	(1)  Believers in Jesus' saving work are considered saints by God (sanctified).  This refers to our status as citizens of heaven, while living on earth.  (2)  While on earth, the continuing work of the Holy Spirit resulting in the strengthening of our faith and becoming increasingly Christ-like (holy).  (3)  The final change that occurs on Judgment Day where believers are forever separated from their sinful nature and are thereby made holy.
Sin	A word not commonly used by Mormons since Mormonism has a weak view of sin.  "But all of us are guilty of sin to some degree" (Gospel Principles, p. 117).  Instead of talking about sin, they use words such as bad habits, infractions, mistakes, and poor judgments.	Any violation of God's commands, whether in thought, word, or deed.  Includes any and all trespass, transgression, iniquity, wickedness, etc.  Includes sins of omission (not doing what we are commanded) as well as commission (doing what we are commanded not to do).
Plan of Salvation	In general, Mormonism.   Specifically, an intricate plan outlining a process of progression toward eternal life (exaltation).  Steps in this process include becoming perfect, temple endowment, and celestial marriage.  All the laws and ordinances of Mormonism embody the plan.	God's plan of sacrificing his perfect son so that all who believe in him are saved (given eternal life).  John 3:14-17:  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

[sevenbak]

Nothing to forgive, horn in any time. But I wouldn’t base my frustrations on just additional revealed scripture. I take Jesus at his word when he says that other sheep would hear his voice, and he would bring them. That simply didn’t happen among the gentiles.

[sevenbak]

NO Gospel for Israel at all. Instead, a King. The Gospel is for the Church.

The gospel was preached to the Jews, Christ did it himself. Of what heritage do you think the first Christians were?

[sevenbak]

I’m with ha. (snicker)

[sevenbak]

I’m with ya. (snicker)

[sevenbak]

AMPU, what if I were to ask you never to post to me again, but let’s say, for the sake of example, that I now start to bash the religion of all Evangelical Christians, follow every thread of George Bush and delve into all his doctrines that I dont’ agree with. I can say all I want to, but you are not allowed to post to me at all. Does this sound like a equitable freedom to defend his faith, which you now deny to DU? It thought this was Free Republic? Not Free only to AMPU Republic?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

seven,

Read my original post again... I did not write “Jews”, I
wrote “Israel”.

ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

seven,
I am fine with you posting your opinion on any topic you
wish - regardless of whether I agree or disagree. Have at
it.

I can always post by addressing any issue to “All” or any
other poster.

I think you may have issues with the way the Religion Moderator
is conducting his job with equity. Maybe you should complain
to him and Jim R. for how the forum rules work. I do not
make those rules... just try to live within them.

best,
ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I take Jesus at his word when he says that other sheep would hear his voice, and he would bring them. That simply didn’t happen among the gentiles.”

Gentiles hear the Savior’s voice every single day, thankfully!
And thankfully, they respond to the Biblical Jesus, and
the Biblical Good News Gospel by faith. And all that without a
single fake-temple ceremony.

best,
ampu

[sevenbak]

Sorry, nice try. You can’t take Jews out of the house of Israel. The gospel was preached to them!!!

[sevenbak]

ahhh, there’s that “opinion” word. Are you equally fine, as Du says, with posting YOUR “opinion”?

[sevenbak]

Really? When did you heard Jesus Christ speak to you? What did He say? Let’s not confuse the spirit prompting us and teaching us through our hearts to hearing his voice.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Seven,

Christ was presented as a King to Israel. They turned Him
down. After the resurrection and ascension, the gospel was
preached to all men - regardless of Jew or Gentile. The
Gospel was not presented to Israel before this time.

best,
ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Seven,
are you referring to the Democratic Underground, when you cryptically write, “Du”? You lost me there. I don’t frequent
the Du.

ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Really? When did you heard Jesus Christ speak to you? What did He say? Let’s not confuse the spirit prompting us and teaching us through our hearts to hearing his voice.”

And so we’re back to my original statement,

“If you do not understand that it is Christ who
draws all men to Himself, you do not understand
the Gospel” (the real one).

Now it is your turn to feign offense. Please use
exclamation marks as we complete this circle again.

ampu

[greyfoxx39]

I post on these threads because there are many who will say anything to make Mormons look bad, often their posts are unsupportable, they even try to speak for us and tell others what we believe (when they either don't really know, or lie because they think they know better than we do what we believe). This causes me to post on these threads because I can't take the disinformation coming from what is generally a good source of information.

DU, if you see disinformation, and you post what you would call correct information as a response, why do you feel the need to become so agitated? You could easily just post your information and move along.

It appears as though you resent the actual fact that someone is allowed to post this "disinformation" on what is an open forum.

There have been many posts made that cite valid sources. Even many made that cite LDS sources. Disagreement with a source does not render that source "invalid".

This whole discussion on Romney is fueled by the fact that he is a candidate for President of the United States. FR is a political forum in which most are invested in who will be the person to be elected.

I think I have seen Moderator posts that suggest that if a subject or or post is uncomfortable for a person, they simply ignore the subject or post.

I suggest that the personal angst at the "strife" you feel on these threads could be alleviated by following the Moderator's suggestion, rather than trying to invoke rules against free speech.

Just a suggestion.

[MHGinTN]

Between death and Resurrection Jesus took the good news to those ‘in Abraham’s bosom’ too. THOSE are the other sheep, IMHO after decades of Bible study.

[tantiboh]

We could do the whole A-B-C thing...

Sue: “Hey, Bob, would you tell Jane that I’m not talking to her?”

Bob: “uh..”

Jane: “Bob, tell Sue she can go jump in a lake.”

Bob: “well...”

Sue: “So who’s side are you on, anyway, Bob?”