Keep the battle flag out of the Capitol

The Roanoke Times ^ | 29 July 2007 | Christian Trejbal

[Rebeleye]

The Confederate battle flag used to hang in the old House chamber...next to the speaker's chair with the flags of Virginia, the United States... The battle flag is also a symbol of hatred and racism...Racism and slavery now are inextricably interwoven into the battle flag's fabric...The flag also symbolizes rebellion, insurrection and even treason.

[slow5poh]

“You know full well I speak of that spawn from Hamilton’s school of politics”

who r u talking about?

[wardaddy]

damn I hate these PC basatrds....they worship at the altar of redress for anything to do with any minority

the same asshats that call Islam a religion of peace

[stainlessbanner]

Lincoln refused to meet with South Carolina’s mediators to discuss the situation at Sumter; Lincoln and his handlers knew what would happen when discussions fail: War.

[stainlessbanner]

Hamilton favored a strong centralized fedgov/centralized bank; Lincoln’s regime increased the strength of the fedgov. As oppposed to the limited government principles of the Southern states, Jefferson, Calhoun, etc.

[slow5poh]

i agree with everything u just said.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

Oh really. I guess states right was not an important issue. I guess it’s ok the the northern victory in the civil war led to the supersize federal government we have today. The fed. gov was never meant to be absolute ruler over that states. It was never meant to be as large and intrusive as it is today. What “right” did the framers have to rebel against the British crown? Sometimes the right thing to do is considered wrong at the time.

It's true that the federal government was never meant to be absolute ruler over the states. That's not what Lincoln thought either. That started to come about under Southern Democrat Woodrow Wilson. But the Constitution clearly never considered the states to have unlimited sovereignty either. The 10th Amendment does not supersede the constitutional prohibition on state exercise of some features of sovereignty found in Article IV section 10.

As the Declaration of Independence states, the resort to revolution should not be undertaken hastily. The Declaration listed a long list of real grievances suffered over a long period. Anger over a political setback by a greedy group of pro-slavery politicians does not meet the standards of the Declaration.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

Hamilton favored a strong centralized fedgov/centralized bank; Lincoln’s regime increased the strength of the fedgov. As oppposed to the limited government principles of the Southern states, Jefferson, Calhoun, etc.

I would not call a government that supports a system that enslaves a large number of its residents limited. Right after the Civil War we can see how much the Confederates really loved limited government with the governmental intrusion into private economic relationships found in the infamous Black Codes.

[stainlessbanner]

The mess following the war called Reconstruction belongs to the Republicans, not Confederates.

[stainlessbanner]

Lincoln admitted the right of secession in 1848, yet no longer supported it once he became POTUS.

[slow5poh]

“Anger over a political setback by a greedy group of pro-slavery politicians does not meet the standards of the Declaration.”

That was NOT the only of primary reason for secession and you know it.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

Lincoln admitted the right of secession in 1848, yet no longer supported it once he became POTUS.

Looking at what Lincoln said, he was upholding the right of revolution, not a right of secession under the US Constitution.

"Any people, anywhere. Being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right – a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit."

[Colonel Kangaroo]

I have looked at the southern secession declarations. I have found only very minimal references to any cause but a perceived threat to slavery caused by the Constitutional election of a president that they did not like.

[slow5poh]

define minimal

[stainlessbanner]

So it’s ok to overthrow the government in revolution, but not peacefully secede.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

The mess following the war called Reconstruction belongs to the Republicans, not Confederates.

Right after the war, there was a period of time while Congress was out of session that Democrat Andrew Johnson let the old regimes have their way. This was the period that produced the Black Codes. Revulsion to this and other neo-Confederate outrages helped enflame Republicans and led to the institution of Congressional Reconstruction under the control of the Radicals.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

So it’s ok to overthrow the government in revolution, but not peacefully secede.

But there's no provision for peaceful secession. And the states are prohibited in Article IV from exercising the things that are requirements of sovereignty. Separation had to be through revolution and revolution is no mere political act such as a legal secession would have been.

[stainlessbanner]

Does Lincoln support revolution in his 1848 statement?

[Colonel Kangaroo]

To me minimal means that I believe one state (Georgia I think) had a short reference to tariffs in a sea of slavery talk.

Texas also had a section on a grievance of more substance in a reference to a lack of assistance in pacifying indian tribes.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

I think Lincoln does strongly uphold the right of revolution in 1848. And I think that’s why Lincoln went out of his way to conciliate the South in his first inauguration. He wanted all to see that whatever disputes the secessionists had, they were political and not revolutionary.

[slow5poh]

by secession, they then had to fight to leave. I would call that revolution wouldnt you?