Posted on 07/31/2007 10:31:05 AM PDT by Rebeleye
The Confederate battle flag used to hang in the old House chamber...next to the speaker's chair with the flags of Virginia, the United States... The battle flag is also a symbol of hatred and racism...Racism and slavery now are inextricably interwoven into the battle flag's fabric...The flag also symbolizes rebellion, insurrection and even treason.
(Excerpt) Read more at roanoke.com ...
LOL! You did fix it up. Quite accurately if I say so myself. To hear the Shermanites, WT was just a step below Lincoln on their deification scale, serving as the latter day Saviour" of the South.
Sherman [*SPIT*] was a madman.
I wrote with billbears post #16 in mind:
... As I owe no allegiance to the union. Which is why I do not own, say a pledge to, nor fly a union flag. Ever. ...
Here's more from his post #60:
I don't fly the union flag because no one in my family fought for the Army of the 'Republic'. But I don't fly the Battle Flag either. There are only two flags in front of my house. North Carolina's 1861 flag and the First National. If you want to fly the union flag that's your choice. If you want to say a pledge to a piece of cloth that's your choice too. I have no problem with you flying the flag of your choice. And you shouldn't ask those in our Southern Capitol to rescind their heritage either.
So obviously my statement isn't 100% false. There are people out there for whom the Confederacy or the South is more important than the country as a whole.
I was also writing in response to this "slippery slope" argument, that after "they" come for the Confederate flag it will be Old Glory's turn to be taken down.
But really if this country is going to tear itself apart, do you really think keeping the Confederate flag flying over some statehouse or monument is going to prevent that?
Maybe it's the other way around: the more people fly ethnic or regional flags the less they may come to care for the country as a whole.
Anyway, the "slippery slope" goes both ways. Talk up the Confederacy long enough and who knows where it will end up.
“The fact your overlooking is that it was THE SOUTH that belonged and still belongs to the UNION”
Once the south had withdrawn from the union it then became CSA land, just like after the revolutionary war with england this became our land.
That is not what i said. I said Lincoln knew that the south would fire on federal troops if he did not evacuate the fort. He did not trick them he simply made them the aggressors, all he had to do was leave the fort and take the compensation. He wouldn’t even meet with the CSA about the fort. What makes you people think it was ok to revolt against england, but not for the south to revolt? Can you not see the similarities?
“But we knew that we were starting a war. We didn’t act all huffy and shocked when the British fired back”
I don’t think the south was shocked.
Not really. The federal government seizes civilian land where they see fit. I don’t see how that is the same as a government arising and separating from the union. They are not seizing their civilians land.
“A lot of people take the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of a rebellious attitude towards authority. They forget that these Confederates had their own federal government, intrusive legislators, domineering bureaucrats, and all the rest”
I see the flag as a battle for freedom. I see it as an extension of the anti-federalists who knew the dangers of a large federal government. The confederate constitution is very similar to the original one, as you may know. I think they respected that document, but knew it wasn’t perfect and that it granted too much power to the federal gov. In the CSA gov, the fed gov was to be much weaker than in the union.
“The leaders of the Confederacy weren’t hard-pressed little guys getting together in their garages or dens. A lot of them were wealthy slave-owners. Not a few of them had imperial designs. Some of them were outright crazy.”
I don’t believe that. Maybe some were aristocratic slave owners, but I believe that the majority of the leaders were patriots. I refuse to believe so many young southern poor men that did not own slaves would fight a war entirely over slavery. They would not have fought if they did not believe it to be important.
“I guess the idea is that we’d all be free if it weren’t for Washington. I thought that way once too, but 1) state and local governments can be quite oppressive on their own, as would an alternative federal government, and 2) there was a potential for even more chaos and misery than we see today: race and class and geographical divisions might well have been even more bitter in an independent South than they are now.”
I see our federal government like a huge octopus with its tentacles stretching across the nation strangling the freedoms and ruling the states with absolute authority. I see 7 judges that get to set the supreme law of the land. I can see taxation beyond the wildest nightmares of the founders, and wealth redistribution that would make karl marx blush. I see million of lazy people on the gov. dole. I see agencies like the NSA that can spy on anyone for any reason. I see our rights threatened on a daily basis. I see a gov. that can suspend habeas corpus at the drop of a hat and render our rights useless. I see gov agencies that strong arm business into submission. I could go on and on. I believe some of these problems are the legacy of the south’s defeat in the war.
The United States of America had to earn it's freedom from England before we could truly call this land ours. That happened when Cornwallis surrendered to Washington at Yorktown. Just like England after the Declaration of Independence, The Union refused to recognize the CSA as a sovern nation when the CSA declared it's freedom.
The CSA didn't send anyone to talk about the fort. They sent a delegation demanding diplomatic recognition. Compensation for federal property stolen wasn't on the agenda.
He wouldn’t even meet with the CSA about the fort. What makes you people think it was ok to revolt against england, but not for the south to revolt? Can you not see the similarities?
No. Because you Southron supporters all claim that your actions were legal and Constitutional. The Founding Fathers were under no such misconceptions. They knew their actions were illegal, they knew that they would have to fight for their independence, and they were prepared to accept the consequences of their actions. Southroners, as you showed, believe that the federal government should havr rolled over and allowed them to rebel. That the South had every legal right to take property without compensation, repudiate debt, walk away from treaty obligations, and that the North had no recource. Well that is nonsense. If you want to admit that the Southern actions were rebellion then fine. I'll agree with you that their actions then loosely resembled the actions of the founders. But then you have to stop blaming Lincoln for his opposition to your actions.
Because according to the Constitution only Congress can dispose of federal lands. States cannot exercise eminent domain on them.
I see the flag as a battle for freedom.
Well, for perhaps 2/3rds of your population anyway.
Their habit of ignoring that constitution idicates otherwise. And in its own way the Davis government was even larger and more intrusive than Lincoln's was.
The majority of Southern soldiers fought because their region was at war. The question is not why they fought but why their leaders sent them out to fight. And the evidence shows that by far the single most important reason for the Southern rebellion was defense of their institution of slavery.
I see our federal government like a huge octopus with its tentacles stretching across the nation strangling the freedoms and ruling the states with absolute authority. I see 7 judges that get to set the supreme law of the land. I can see taxation beyond the wildest nightmares of the founders, and wealth redistribution that would make karl marx blush. I see million of lazy people on the gov. dole. I see agencies like the NSA that can spy on anyone for any reason. I see our rights threatened on a daily basis. I see a gov. that can suspend habeas corpus at the drop of a hat and render our rights useless. I see gov agencies that strong arm business into submission. I could go on and on. I believe some of these problems are the legacy of the south’s defeat in the war.
And you blame that all on Lincoln.
BTW it's 9 judges not 7.
““The flag also symbolizes rebellion, insurrection and even treason.” Sounds like the Democratic Party ought to adopt it as their symbol, based on what he wrote...”
I nominate that as the best thread comment so far!
“BTW it’s 9 judges not 7.”
oops dumb mistake your right.
“The CSA didn’t send anyone to talk about the fort. They sent a delegation demanding diplomatic recognition. Compensation for federal property stolen wasn’t on the agenda.”
That’s not what I have read. I have read that the CSA offered ample time and conpensation for the fort.
“Southroners, as you showed, believe that the federal government should havr rolled over and allowed them to rebel. That the South had every legal right to take property without compensation, repudiate debt, walk away from treaty obligations, and that the North had no recource. Well that is nonsense. If you want to admit that the Southern actions were rebellion then fine. I’ll agree with you that their actions then loosely resembled the actions of the founders. But then you have to stop blaming Lincoln for his opposition to your actions.”
I never ONCE said that the south expected the union to roll over, but they did give them the option to peacefully leave the fort and let the south leave. Besides ENgland owned the colonies, the union did not own the states.
” And in its own way the Davis government was even larger and more intrusive than Lincoln’s was”
B.S. how about some sources to back thaT UP.
“The majority of Southern soldiers fought because their region was at war. The question is not why they fought but why their leaders sent them out to fight. And the evidence shows that by far the single most important reason for the Southern rebellion was defense of their institution of slavery.”
b.s. AGAIN. Would you give your life freely for an unworthy cause? I sure wouldnt.
#####I nominate that as the best thread comment so far!#####
The fact that the left gets so upset and self-righteously indignant over the flag is proof enough that it DOESN’T represent treason. If it did, the left would embrace it or at least be willing to tolerate it.
Yeah, there were a lot of different circumstances. The Founders launched their rebellion because they had no representation in Parliament. The South launched their's in spite of the fact that they had a disproportionate representation in Congress.
Then perhaps you can show us some of what you've read. If you read the legislation authorizing the delegation and Davis' letter to Lincoln introducing then delegation, it makes it clear that they were there for one reason only, recognition. And only after that was there a vague offer to talk about 'matters interesting to both nations'. No offer to pay for Sumter or anything else.
I never ONCE said that the south expected the union to roll over, but they did give them the option to peacefully leave the fort and let the south leave.
You expected the Lincoln administration to let the South leave, you say. Apparently without paying for any federal property that they stole, or compensation for their share of the federal debt built up while they were a part, and to walk away from treaty obligations the nation had. And the remaining states would have to bear this entire burden. So again, why should the remaining states peacefully sit back and allow themselves to get screwed over like that?
The Davis government passed tariffs that were protective in nature, ignored the requirement for a supreme court, and towards the end of the rebellion promised the European powers that they would a end slavery in exchange for recognition. All actions that were blatant violations of their constitution. The regiments that formed their army were legally state militia, but Davis extended their enlistments for the duration of the war without consulting the states. They placed a levy on farm produce without compensation 'for the war effort'. They conscripted slave labor without compensation 'for the war effort' and forced private ship owners to reserve most of their cargo space for government imports without compensation for the same reason. They nationalized industries like salt and liquor, tried to enact confiscatory income taxes, declared martial law in areas of the country hundreds of miles from the fighting. They jailed thousands without trial, and on a per capita basis you were more likely to be jailed without trial in the confederacy than in the Union. That's a partial list.
It's a bad precedent for a government to start seizing land. What would we do if Castro had started firing on Guantanamo? What would the British have done if Mao had attacked Hong Kong?
I see the flag as a battle for freedom. I see it as an extension of the anti-federalists who knew the dangers of a large federal government.
That's your take on it. Fine. It doesn't change the fact that the Confederacy was a government and a repressive one.
I refuse to believe so many young southern poor men that did not own slaves would fight a war entirely over slavery.
Most of them fought because they saw the South as under attack. Most of them wouldn't have fought otherwise. Most Germans fought in 1914 because they believed Germany was being encircled. But in both cases, that was far from the whole story of what the war was about.
I see our federal government like a huge octopus with its tentacles stretching across the nation strangling the freedoms and ruling the states with absolute authority.
Okay, but at some point consider what happens in other parts of the world: the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caribbean, etc. Those who fought for the union understood that there were plenty of dangers in disunion and you might give a thought to that. Anyway, it's easy to claim that state's rights or disunion would mean freedom, but states haven't always been friends of liberty or individual enterprise, and the Confederacy wasn't either.
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