Posted on 07/13/2007 11:13:07 AM PDT by JZelle
Nothing stirs the blood like talking about religion. That's why it's taboo to talk about it in casual social conversations. Better to ask the boss's wife whether she ever considered a face-lift.
But Pope Benedict XVI is a man of firm conviction and blunt talk. Not for this pontiff the Vatican II tradition of warm and fuzzy, as the message of Vatican II, which put a friendly expression on the stern countenance of the church of Rome, has been widely interpreted in the circles of those addicted to warm and fuzzy. This week he authorized a statement of "clarification" of Vatican II, and to the consternation of some Roman Catholics here, the secular press interpreted the message to Protestants as no more Mr. Nice Guy.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
Likely because they know it is a symbol for you, NOT the Real Presence as it is in the Catholic Church. Since you have no desire to accept Catholic teachings, and,I assume, don't believe that in Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, you are taking into your body the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, why would you be offended that you are not included? It's not just a 'feel good' thing for us.
Catholics don't 'worship' Mary, and when we pray to her, we do so in the hope that she'll be another prayer for us to Jesus, who venerates her as His Mother. Remember "Wherever two or three are gathered in my Name, there am I also, in their midst"? We consider Mary, and the Saints, part of those who are gathered in Jesus's name when we pray. One can never go amiss, when joining with others in prayer to Our Lord.
The Pope seems to be simply stating that the Catholic Church is the only one that has a clear, linear succession from Peter, who was chosen by Jesus to direct His Church on earth, to the Pope today. This the Pope calls a real Church. Since those groups that broke away from the Apostolic Church obviously do not have that succession, they aren't considered Churches in the true sense.
He's never said that being a member of one of those groups does not mean that you can't attain salvation. Each of us has to do that for ourselves, no matter which Christian organization it is in which we profess our faith. And those groups are free to call themselves Church, Congregation, whatever they wish.
Anyone who denies what they know to be God's truth is committing apostasy and rejecting God.
Rejecting God is the fast lane to Hell, for sure.
I'm surprised ... well, I guess I overestimate some people ... surprised that anyone would dispute that.
You realize you are quoting the Associated Press, not the Pope, right?
As has been pointed out many times, but which prejudiced people choose to ignore, the Pope restated Catholic doctrine that salvation is obtained through instrument of the Catholic Church of which Jesus Christ is the head and the Holy Spirit is the guide -- one doesn't have to call oneself "Catholic" to be be saved through the Catholic Church.
Of course prejudiced people do not care to read what was actually said, or take the time to understand Catholic doctrine -- they'd rather just wallow in hate and demonize Catholics.
Your response makes my point.
We use wheat because it's doctrine that we use wheat. There's nothing wrong with that, and even some very good things about it. But remember also that the Jewish dietary laws don't apply to us. More importantly, the flour with which the host is made is not a matter upon which eternal life depends. It's our faith that matters. The sort of faith God is looking for does not depend on the use of wheat flour: he's more interested in how we approach the altar.
What we have then, is a rule that by which some choose to define "valid" and "invalid" Communion, as if God really cares about what kind of flour we use. Jesus said of such people:
They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. (Matt. 23:4)
Taking it further, suppose wheat wasn't an option for some reason. Is Communion therefore impossible? Highly doubtful. Jesus told the following story:
And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?" And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. (Mark 2:25-27)
Jesus' point is that rules and doctrine are not ends in themselves; rather, they're supposed to help people toward a relationship with God. Doctrine should never be used to block our path -- but that's very often what "doctrinal fights" end up doing.
Either Protestants are going to hell, OR Catholics are going to hell...
No, we’re all caught up in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Our bad.
And HE wins. Nobody else.
Colorado,
Sorry to burst your bubble here but most communions around the world practice closed communion, i.e. no Body and Blood without agreement in doctrine. Open communion is a relatively new practice. At my Lutheran church you would most likely not be able to commune. We even make our children wait until they are confirmed (6th grade), so we certainly are not going to give the Body and Blood of Christ to those we don’t know!
He is all things to all men...smile.
“Of course prejudiced people do not care to read what was actually said, or take the time to understand Catholic doctrine — they’d rather just wallow in hate and demonize Catholics.”
Let me clue you in Sunshine. I do not hate Catholics or the pope or the Catholic church in any way shape or form. There IS one that I would love to see sitting behind bars but that is not the topic here. I consider Catholics my brothers and sisters in Christ, something that many Catholics apparantly are not able to say about non-Catholics.
“one doesn’t have to call oneself “Catholic” to be be saved through the Catholic Church.”
Again with the classic arrogance. NO CHURCH HAS EVER SAVED OR PROVIDED SALVATION TO ANYONE AT ANY TIME. That is what Jesus was for. You do remember him right? Bearded gent, hanging on a cross? Had a thing for poor folks and miracles? HE is the way, the TRUTH and the LIGHT, not some collection of beaurocrats in Rome, not Mary and not some old guy in a pointy hat.
SuziQ,
Holy Communion is not just a feel good thing for Lutherans either. We believe, as our Lord states, that the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper are His true Body and Blood. This is why orthodox Lutheran’s practice closed communion.
Um Johnny, that road goes both ways on these threads or haven’t ya noticed?
JohnnyZ,
I agree with you that the Pope was correctly stating what is the Roman Catholic doctrine of who is saved and how. I commend him for his honesty and, I think, courage. I disagree with the Roman Catholic position, however. I am a Catholic who happens to be Lutheran. For instance, I believe that Baptism forgives all sin, not just original sin. Isn’t the Roman Catholic position that Baptism forgives only original sin? Just curious.
SusiQ,
You write, “And those groups are free to call themselves Church, Congregation, whatever they wish.”
I ask, are they free to call themselves Catholic?
Benedict needs to be calling for a Crusade against the islamofascists, not attacking fellow Christians.
The thread started, and immediately a whole stream of non-Catholics began attacking the Pope and Catholics in general.
Go back and read the thread.
Catholicism in America has often had that problem. It's a side effect of the fact that this country is Protestant in spirit and therefor Catholics, and especially those Catholics from Ireland, came here with an inferiority complex that resulted in an "Americanization" of culture. The upshot was that they became accepted as part of America and in politics, but at the cost of their honest Catholicism. This is why those lapsed Catholics tend to parade Protestant notions of populism in religion from their adopted country against the authority of their inherited Church. Catholic politicians are the worst in this regard.
Praying to Mary is the best part of my day. And tomorrow I'm going to say a few extra Hail Marys just to stay on your good side!
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