To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; narby
Narby: So why did the creationists transform themselves into IDers if they were winning the battles? They didn't. The creationists are still creationists. The IDers are a whole 'nother group that has only become vocal for the past decade or so.
Evidence suggests Narby is right and you are wrong.
The Kitzmiller vs. Dover decision lays out all of the details. Here are some exerpts:
- Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted, whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service describe it as a religious, Christian organization.
- Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work.
- As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as "special creation" of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept.
- The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from "creation" to "intelligent design" occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court's important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs' assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled.
- Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer, adult or child, who is "aware of the history and context of the community and forum" is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of creationism. One significant difference is that the words "God," "creationism," and "Genesis" have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced by an unnamed "designer." Dr. Forrest testified and sponsored exhibits showing six arguments common to creationists. Demonstrative charts introduced through Dr. Forrest show parallel arguments relating to the rejection of naturalism, evolution's threat to culture and society, "abrupt appearance" implying divine creation, the exploitation of the same alleged gaps in the fossil record, the alleged inability of science to explain complex biological information like DNA, as well as the theme that proponents of each version of creationism merely aim to teach a scientific alternative to evolution to show its "strengths and weaknesses," and to alert students to a supposed "controversy" in the scientific community. In addition, creationists made the same argument that the complexity of the bacterial flagellum supported creationism as Professors Behe and Minnich now make for ID. The IDM openly welcomes adherents to creationism into its "Big Tent," urging them to postpone biblical disputes like the age of the earth. Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID's relations hip with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism.
72 posted on
06/27/2007 1:09:57 PM PDT by
Coyoteman
(Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
To: Coyoteman
Evidence suggests Narby is right and you are wrong. If creationists transformed themselves into IDers, then why are the same old creationists who've been plugging away for decades still at it (except for Morris, who died last year)? ID is a new camp of writers and thinkers who may have arisen in response to said court decision, but to say that they themselves ARE the creationists relabeled is logically and factually incorrect.
Narby's statement suggests a tit-for-tat carryover of the creationists to the ID camp. Such carryover did not occur, which is why there are still the same creationists (who, incidentally, are as often at odds with IDers as with evolutionists) regardless of what a judge who knew little to nothing about the issue had to say. The problem is simply that you, narby, and the judge in the Kitzmiller case, are confusing terms and conflating groups together because it is then easier to paint them with a broad brush rather than have to deal with them separately.
To: Coyoteman
One significant difference is that the words "God," "creationism," and "Genesis" have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced by an unnamed "designer." Seems like this would make it less specific to any religion.
Should the courts overturn laws against murder if one successfully demonstrates they were simply a relabeling of one of the Ten Commandments?
82 posted on
06/27/2007 1:26:44 PM PDT by
AndyTheBear
(Disastrous social experimentation is the opiate of elitist snobs.)
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