Posted on 06/13/2007 6:57:12 AM PDT by philman_36
This morning on Fox and Friends there was made mention that much stricter fines are in the immigration reform bill. While this is true many folks may not know about a few words that follow the language about the tougher fines. Those words make a travesty of any "fines" as they can be waved and the employer could walk away owing nothing in penalties.
Here are the words I've got a problem with...
So while we're being told that "the penalties are tougher" we aren't being told that under some circumstances employers can face reduced or even no fine whatsoever.
At this point of time in our history America can't afford our officials not being completely truthful to us and not stating that the possibility exists for employers to potentially be let off the hook completely is simply unacceptable.
he hasn’t responded at all.
once...sensitive guy, LOL (link to his only response w/replies)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1850240/posts?page=875#875
So far, this is NOT engagement, Mr. Thompson. No one here holds drive-by posters in any regard at all.
Yes, that singular response, it says something too.
Most kids learn at an early age that you don’t put your hand in fire. The first time is generally enough of a lesson. It took this guy two tries to learn. I hope he takes the message upstairs to Jorge but somehow I doubt it.
What are you waiting for? This activity is illegal under current law. When I see companies like Verizon and AT&T being fined substantial amounts of money for employing front groups that hire illegals you'l gain some credibility.
Until then its just more words.
Will History write a legacy of a necessary engagement that wasn't engaged? That means Iran, right now -- because the President's energies were spent on giving extra special protections to 11+ million non-citizens here illegally?
When Iran uses those nukes which we didn't "engage", will it be one day soon where 22+ million are gone?
Thank you for taking the time to post here initially.
Unfortunately, you didn’t offer a response to any of the many valid criticisms that were addressed to you thereafter.
Sadly, that seems to be the policy of the White House for handling this issue.
While not great at stopping armies, these two walls - build without out modern machinery - were very good at controlling migration by funneling people through control points. We need a concrete reinforced wall 3 to 4 feet thick 20 feet high and 10 to 20 feet deep from the pacific to the gulf.
Before you completely destroy this country and the Republican party with this amnesty bill, Why don’t you clean up that huge mess you created in Iraq? Your administration and Trent Lott’s recent public comments show you hold republicans in contempt (you want to loose us all.) You have betrayed us too many times but now that you decimated elected Republicans (in 06) you have no credibility whatsoever. All you do is bad for us now after the election. Lastly, pardon Scooter Libby (who you betrayed) and resign yourself, take personal responsibility for once.
Have you no shame, Mr. Thompson?
engage -- vt -- to involve, interlock, entangle with …
This post, in addition to the supplemental one posted by Kristinn, have garnered nearly two thousand replies over the past twenty-four hours.
And what responses have our deep concerns received from Mr. Thompson?
(*crickets*)
Granted, Thompson and Rushton work for the White House, and no doubt have busy schedules. But, were I Karl Rove – or the President himself – and, were I genuinely interested in the opinions expressed here on FR, and genuinely interested in the concept of representative government – I might have assigned my representatives in the Office of Strategic Initiatives a twenty-four-hour period in which to answer the concerns that resulted from their post here.
Didn’t happen. Instead, Mr. Thompson made his original post, defending a minute portion of the current immigration bill, and then exited without so much as single response to anything of substance in nearly two thousand intelligent, educated concerns voiced by people here on this forum. The only other response he offered was a two-sentence one, responding to a claim that he is affiliated with the New America Foundation, and assuring the poster that he is not. That’s it.
Why?
One very probable explanation: Thompson and Rushton are not willing to engage the very powerful arguments against this abominable bill. Their assignment is simply to one-sidedly promote a handful of talking points.
If that is the case, and if all of our concerns are going to be left sitting here unanswered, perhaps this represents the unkindest cut of all. We are seen as a captive audience for the administration’s talking points, while at the same time our entirely valid concerns are considered unworthy of honest debate.
The once meaningful of the people, by the people, and for the people phrase is ringing more hollow with each passing day, as so-called ‘conservatives’ in Washington shut themselves off from the people and govern as if they are answerable to no one but themselves and their own ubiquitous agenda.
~ joanie
Mr. Thompson, in 1986, when President Reagan authorized amnesty to illegal Mexicans/Chinese,etc, many who had been in this country for some 5 to 20 or more years, after they proved to be good citizens, were given green cards. We were told not to hire non-green card holding immigrants. Shortly after that warning, we were then told we could not ask a “Mexican/Chinese/etc looking” prospective employee if they held green cards. What’s going to happen now, if this new amnesty bill is passed? Are employers again going to be told they cannot ask if the person is legal? Why aren’t we enforcing the “new law” increasing border walking personnel, building barriers? This new prospective bill is for the birds.
Truth and courage. Thank you.
This will be a low cost temporary corrective therapy. At this time the goal is not to cure the patient, just calm her nerves. This is necessary because the intent of the doctors in the WH is to increase the toxicity of this dosage at the earliest possible moment.
We, the people are demanding a strong dosage of alkaline based fencing with major corrective surgery for the nuerological disorders in our Senate. A partial suggested checklist is available from Doctor Jeff Sessions, Republican - ALABAMA or one of his medical assistants.
The following is a brief review.
20 Loopholes in the Senate Immigration Bill
Loophole 1 – Legal Status Before Enforcement:
Amnesty benefits do not wait for the “enforcement trigger.” After filing an application and waiting 24 hours, illegal aliens will receive full “probationary benefits,” complete with the ability to legally live and work in the U.S., travel outside of the U.S. and return, and their own social security card. Astonishingly, if the trigger is never met and amnesty applications are therefore never “approved,” the probationary benefits granted to the illegal alien population never expire, and the new social security cards issued to the illegal alien population are not revoked. [See pp. 1, 290-291, & 315].
Loophole 2 – U.S. VISIT Exit Not In Trigger:
The “enforcement trigger,” required to be met before the new temporary worker program begins, does not require that the exit portion of U.S. VISIT system – the biometric border check-in/check-out system first required by Congress in 1996 that is already well past its already postponed 2005 implementation due date – to be in place before new worker or amnesty programs begin. Without the U.S. VISIT exit portion, the U.S. has no method to ensure that workers (or their visiting families) do not overstay their visas. Our current illegal population contains 4 to 5.5 million visa overstays, therefore, we know that the U.S. VISIT exit component is key to a successful new temporary worker program. [See pp. 1-2].
Loophole 3 – Trigger Requires No More Agents, Beds, or Fencing Than Current Law:
The “enforcement trigger” does not require the Department of Homeland Security to have detention space sufficient to end “catch and release” at the border and in the interior. Even after the adoption of amendment 1172, the trigger merely requires the addition of 4,000 detention beds, bringing DHS to a 31,500 bed capacity. This is far short of the 43,000 beds required under current law to be in place by the end of 2007, or the additional 20,000 beds required later in the bill. Additionally, the bill establishes a “catch, pay, and release” program. This policy will benefit illegal aliens from countries other than Mexico that are caught at the border, then can post a $5,000 bond, be released and never show up for deportation hearings. Annual failure to appear rates for 2005 and 2006, caused in part by lack of detention space, doubled the 2004 rate (106,000 – 110,000 compared with 54,000). Claims that the bill “expands fencing” are inaccurate. The bill only requires 370 miles of fencing to be completed, while current law already mandates that more than 700 miles be constructed [See pp. 1-2, & 10-11, and EOIR’s FY2006 Statistical Yearbook, p. H2, and The Secure Fence Act of 2004].
Loophole 4 — Three Additional Years Worth of Illegal Aliens Granted Status, Treated Preferentially To Legal Filers:
Aliens who broke into the country illegally a mere 5 months ago, are treated better than foreign nationals who legally applied to come to the U.S. more than two years ago. Aliens who can prove they were illegally in the U.S. on January 1, 2007, are immediately eligible to apply from inside the U.S. for amnesty benefits, while foreign nationals that filed applications to come to the U.S. after May 1, 2005 must start the application process over again from their home countries. Last year’s bill required illegal aliens to have been here before January 7, 2004 to qualify for permanent legal status. [See pp. 263, 282, & 306].
Loophole 5 – Completion of Background Checks Not Required For Probationary Legal Status:
Legal status must be granted to illegal aliens 24 hours after they file an application, even if the aliens have not yet “passed all appropriate background checks.” (Last year’s bill gave DHS 90 days to check an alien’s background before any status was granted). No legal status should be given to any illegal alien until all appropriate background checks are complete. [See pp. 290].
Loophole 6 – Some Child Molesters Are Still Eligible:
Some aggravated felons – those who have sexually abused a minor – are eligible for amnesty. A child molester who committed the crime before the bill is enacted is not barred from getting amnesty if their conviction document omitted the age of the victim. The bill corrects this loophole for future child molesters, but does not close the loophole for current or past convictions. [See p. 47: 30-33, & p. 48: 1-2]
Loophole 7 – Terrorism Connections Allowed, Good Moral Character Not Required:
Illegal aliens with terrorism connections are not barred from getting amnesty. An illegal alien seeking most immigration benefits must show “good moral character.” Last year’s bill specifically barred aliens with terrorism connections from having “good moral character” and being eligible for amnesty. This year’s bill does neither. Additionally, bill drafters ignored the Administration’s request that changes be made to the asylum, cancellation of removal, and withholding of removal statutes in order to prevent aliens with terrorist connections from receiving relief. [Compare §204 in S. 2611 from the 109th Congress with missing §204 on p. 48 of S.A. 1150, & see missing subsection (5) on p. 287 of S.A. 1150].
Loophole 8 – Gang Members Are Eligible:
Instead of ensuring that members of violent gangs such as MS 13 are deported after coming out of the shadows to apply for amnesty, the bill will allow violent gang members to get amnesty as long as they “renounce” their gang membership on their application. [See p. 289: 34-36].
Loophole 9 – Absconders Are Eligible:
Aliens who have already had their day in court – those subject to final orders of removal, voluntary departure orders, or reinstatement of their final orders of removal – are eligible for amnesty under the bill. The same is true for aliens who have made a false claim to citizenship or engaged in document fraud. More than 636,000 alien fugitives could be covered by this loophole. [See p. 285:19-22 which waives the following inadmissibility grounds: failure to attend a removal proceeding; final orders of removal for alien smuggling; aliens unlawfully present after previous immigration violations or deportation orders; and aliens previously removed. This appears to conflict with language on p. 283:40-41. When a direct conflict appears in a statute, the statue is interpreted by the courts to the benefit of the alien.].
Loophole 10 – Learning English Not Required For A Decade:
Illegal aliens are not required to demonstrate any proficiency in English for more than a decade after they are granted amnesty. Learning English is not required for an illegal alien to receive probationary benefits, the first 4-year Z visa, or the second 4-year Z visa. The first Z visa renewal (the second 4-year Z visa) requires only that the alien demonstrate an “attempt” to learn English by being “on a waiting list for English classes.” Passing a basic English test is required only for a second Z visa renewal (the third 4-year Z visa), and even then the alien only has to pass the test “prior to the expiration of the second extension of Z status” (12 years down the road). [See pp. 295-296].
Loophole 11 – Earned Income Tax Credit Will Cost Taxpayers Billions In Just 10 Years:
Current illegal aliens and new guest workers will be eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit, a refundable tax credit designed to encourage American citizens and legal permanent residents to work. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that this loophole will cost the U.S. taxpayer up to $20 billion dollars in just the first 10 years after the bill’s enactment. To be consistent with the intent of the 1996 welfare reforms – which limited new immigrants from receiving public benefits until they had been legal permanent residents for five years – the bill should withhold EITC eligibility from amnestied aliens until they become legal permanent residents. Closing this loophole will save the taxpayers billions of dollars. [See p. 293 after S.A. 1190 was adopted, p. 307, p. 315, §606. All that is required for EITC eligibility is a social security number and resident alien status. Nothing in the bill’s tax provisions limit EITC eligibility. The issuance of social security numbers to aliens as soon as they apply for amnesty will ensure they are able to qualify for the EITC.]
Loophole 12 – Affidavits From Friends Accepted As Evidence:
Records from day-labor centers, labor unions, and “sworn declarations” from any non-relative (acquaintances, friends, coworkers, etc) are to be accepted as evidence that the illegal alien has satisfied the bill’s amnesty requirements. This low burden of proof will invite fraud and more illegal immigration – even aliens who are not yet in the U.S. will likely meet this burden of proof. DHS will not have the resources to examine whether the claims contained in the “sworn declarations” of the alien’s friends (that the alien was here prior to January 1, 2007 and is currently employed) are actually valid. [See p. 293: 13-16].
Loophole 13 – Taxpayer Funded Legal Counsel and Arbitration:
Free legal counsel and the fees and expenses of arbitrators will be provided to aliens that have been working illegally in agriculture. The U.S. taxpayer will fund the attorneys that help these individuals fill out their amnesty applications. Additionally, if these individuals have a dispute with their employer over whether they were fired for “just cause,” DHS will “pay the fee and expenses of the arbitrator.” [See p. 339:37-41, & p. 332: 37-38.]
Loophole 14 – In-State Tuition and Student Loans:
In-state tuition and other higher education benefits, such as Stafford Loans, will be made available to current illegal aliens that are granted initial “probationary” status, even if the same in-state tuition rates are not offered to all U.S. citizens. This would normally violate current law (8 U.S.C. §1623) which mandates that educational institutions give citizens the same postsecondary education benefits they offer to illegal aliens. [See p. 321: 8-31].
Loophole 15 – Inadequacy of the Merit System:
The “merit system,” designed to shift the U.S. green card distribution system to attract higher skilled workers that benefit the national interest, is only a shell of what it should have been. Though the merit system begins immediately, it will not increase the percentage of high skilled immigrants coming to the United States until 2016, 8 years after enactment. Of the 247,000 green cards dedicated to the merit based system each year for the first 5 years, 100,000 green cards will be reserved for low-skilled guest workers (10,000) and for clearing the current employment based green card backlog (90,000). From 2013 to 2015, the number of merit based green cards drops to 140,000, and of that number, 100,000 green cards are still reserved each year for low-skilled guest workers (10,000) and for clearing the current employment based green card backlog (90,000). Even after 2015, when the merit system really begins (in 2016) by having 380,000 green cards annually, 10,00 green cards will be reserved specifically for low skilled workers, and points will be given for many characteristics that are not considered “high-skilled.” For example, 16 points will be given for aliens in “high demand occupations” which includes janitors, maids, food preparation workers, and groundskeepers. [See p.260: 25 – p. 261: 20, p. 262, & The Department of Labor’s list of “occupations with the largest job growth” available at www.bls.gov/emp/emptab3.htm].
Loophole 16 – Visas For Individuals That Plan To Overstay:
The new “parent” visa contained in the bill which allows parents of citizens, and the spouses and children of new temporary workers, to visit a worker in the United States is not only a misnomer, but also an invitation for high rates of visa overstays. This new visa specifically allows the spouse and children of new temporary workers who intend to abandon their residence in a foreign country, to qualify to come to the U.S. to “visit.” The visa requires only a $1,000 bond, which will be forfeited when, not if, family members of new temporary workers decide to overstay their 30 day visit. Workers should travel to their home countries to visit their families, not the other way around. [See p. 277:1 – 33, and p. 276: 38-43].
Loophole 17 – Chain Migration Tippled Before Being Eliminated:
Though the bill will eventually eliminate chain migration (relatives other than spouses and children of citizens and legal permanent residents), it will not have full effect until 2016. Until then, chain migration into the U.S. will actually triple, from approximately 138,000 chain migrants a year (equal to 14% of the 1 million green cards the U.S. currently distributes on an annual basis) to approximately 440,000 chain migrants a year (equal to 45% of the 1 million green cards the U.S. currently distributes on an annual basis). [See pp. 260:13, p. 270: 29 – pp. 271: 17]
Loophole 18 – Back Taxes Not Required:
Last year’s bill required illegal aliens to prove they had paid three of their last five years of taxes to get amnesty. This year, payment of back taxes is not required for amnesty. The bill requires taxes to be paid at the time of application for a green card, but at that time, only proof of payment of Federal taxes (not state and local) is required for the years the alien worked on a Z visa, not the years the alien has already worked illegally in the United States. Though Senator McCain’s S.A. 1190, adopted by voice vote, claimed to “require undocumented immigrants receiving legal status to pay owed back taxes,” the amendment actually only required proof of payment of taxes for “any year during the period of employment required by subparagraph (D)(i).” Since the bill does not contain a subparagraph (D)(i), nor require any past years of employment as a prerequisite for amnesty, the amendment essentially only requires proof of payment of taxes for future work in the U.S., not payment of “back taxes.” [See p. 307, and p. 293 as altered by S.A. 1190, amendment p. 2: 19-20.]
Loophole 19 – Social Security Credits Allowed For Some Illegal Work Histories:
Aliens who came to the U.S. on legal visas, but overstayed their visas and have been working in the U.S. for years, as well as illegal aliens who apply for Z visa status but do not qualify, will be able to collect social security credits for the years they worked illegally. Under the bill, if an alien was ever issued a social security account number – all work-authorized aliens who originally came on legal visas receive these – the alien will receive Social Security credits for any “quarters of coverage” the alien worked after receiving their social security account number. Because the bill requires social security account numbers to be issued “promptly” to illegal aliens as soon as they are granted “any probationary benefits based upon application [for Z status]” (these benefits are granted 24 hours after the application is filed), an illegal alien who is denied Z visa status but continues to work illegally in the U.S. will accumulate Social Security credits. [See pp. 316:8 – 16, and pp. 315: 32-39]
Loophole 20 – Criminal Fines Not Proportional To Conduct:
The criminal fines an illegal alien is required to pay to receive amnesty are less than the bill’s criminal fines for paperwork violations committed by U.S. citizens, and can be paid by installment. Under the bill, an illegal alien must pay a $1,000 criminal fine to apply for a Z visa, and a $4,000 fine to apply for a green card. Eighty percent of those fines can be paid on an installment plan. Under the bill’s confidentiality provisions, someone who improperly handles or uses information on an alien’s amnesty application can be fined $10,000. Administration officials suggest that the bill’s “criminal fines are proportionate to the criminal conduct.” Why, then, is the fine for illegally entering, using false documents to work, and live one-tenth the fine for a paperwork violation committed by a government official? [See p. 287: 34, p. 317: 9, p. 315:6-8, & remarks made by Secretary Gutierrez on Your World with Neil Cavuto, 4:00 May 31, 2007]
Senator Sessions Releases List of 20 Loopholes in the Senate Immigration
Personally, I don’t think Mr. Thompson, or his colleagues, have the courage to engage in a real debate.
The man whom I admire for having the courage and vision to fight the Islamofascist war is going to be remembered as the man who ended the United States of America. Our culture is going to be destroyed if he signs this.
Yep. The ~2000 of us who responded to Thompson’s post ought to be feeling a little like Charlie Brown right about now. It's a wonderful feeling knowing that your government plays you for a fool, isn’t it (especially when you worked so hard to put the ‘Lucy contingent’ in office)?
(A rhetorical question. No response necessary.)
~ joanie
I would like to respond to a few arguments you made. First, every employer caught might “insist” they were trying to comply with the law, but they must PROVE that they were trying to comply. They must show the controls put in place to ensure they did their due diligence to follow the law. This means showing they checked the Employment Eligibility Verification System (EEVS), which the government would have a record of. Under current law, employers can voluntarily participate in Basic Pilot, which will tell an employer whether or not an employee (using name and SSN) is eligible to work.
Not all employers choose to use Basic Pilot. The new bill would require employers to use the EEVS system, which will lower the chances of an illegal being hired and give the federal government the proof they need to impose civil and criminal fines.
Also, a few things are being done to combat forged documents: 1) Companies will have to use EEVS which will verify that the SSN they are using is legit. 2) The Social Security Administration and DHS will scan EEVS’s submitted information to see if SSNs are being used repeatedly (i.e. identity thefts leading to forged documents usually use the same SSN over and over). If SSN X is used in six different states by 20 different people, we will know that 19 people have forged documents and we can pick them up. This will be a new authority not currently in law. 3) Persons will have to present a secure ID (whether REAL ID or another form) that will be used to match the SSN submitted to the person taking the job. By comparing the two, employers can determine if they match. 4) Additionally, EEVS has a feature that allows employers to view photos associated with the SSN, either through a passport application, a visa application or eventually a REAL ID. This will allow the employer another opportunity to make sure documents are not forged.
This Amnesty Bill for illegal aliens is not the reason Conservatives such as myself helped elect President Bush to TWO terms as our President.
Tell President Bush if this amnesty bill passes I'm leaving the Republican Party and the Republicans will NOT get another one red cent from me!!!
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