Posted on 06/08/2007 4:03:44 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo
He may be free now, but don't think for a NY minute that the cops aren't watching and will be all over him like stink on poop if he makes one little move that could be interpreted as a violation of some vaguely written law.
Cops hate it when a private citizen makes all of them look like the Barney Fife wannabes that a few of them actually are. I don't have anything against honest, hard working LEOs of all kinds, in fact I greatly appreciate them and the security they provide at the risk of their lives. But there are a few bad apples in every barrel, and when those few have the power to ruin your life out of spite or for revenge that makes for a very bad apple.
A former good friend, now deceased, was targeted after he filed a complaint about a cop who was sexually harassing his wife. He finally went to the Chief of Police and told him that he was going to kill the offending cop if something wasn't done to keep him away from his wife.
From that day on he could seldom drive through town without being ticketed for breaking some minor traffic law that no one had ever heard of before. Also he was harassed by cops supposedly "investigating" alleged complaints by unidentified neighbors about offenses that never occurred. But apparently the bad apple cop believed he was serious about the death threat because he stopped making unwanted lewd advances to his wife, which made the harassment worth it to him.
Exactly right. The antis are no doubt grinning from ear to ear when they read about incidents like this.
When I'm carrying I make doubly sure that I don't inadvertently PO somebody, which could possibly escalate and make it necessary for me to display my weapon to prevent injury to myself or a family member. I can guarantee you that anyone who pulls a gun on another person in a public venue in practically any town in the US without a legally defensible reason will be in very hot water for a long time to come.
Not necessarily, IMHO that is.
I don't know anything about the situation other than what SWAMPSNIPER posted, but in the metro Atlanta area I doubt that many people would blame a convenience store clerk for drawing a gun if he saw a scruffy looking "customer" with a concealed gun in his store. That would be another situation where it would be better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
The issue to me is being able to draw and defuse the situation without going into a panic, and blasting away. I know you were probably taught not to draw unless you are going to shoot, I think my way is better. I don’t want to shoot anyone, but don’t want to be shot myself. Why let things go too far, when there is a chance to stop, before someone gets hurt?
I’ve spent large chunks of my life in harms way, not going to argue about how I lived through it. Most of the time I didn’t have an instruction book.
While I believe it's probably not wise in many areas to pull a gun as you did in that situation, you knew the circumstance far better than any of us who may critique your action. As I commented, if there is a strong probability that you are in a life or death situation it's much better to remain alive and be judged by a jury of your peers than to be dead and carried by your six best friends.
Around this area, small town north GA, it would be hard to find 12 jurors who would convict an honest man for defending himself or others with deadly force against an armed and threatening POS who he has good reason to he believe intends to rob and/or kill him. A man accused of that in a court might just end up being awarded a medal by the jury.
Sad to say, but you’re right. There’s a small number of them that think that their badge gives them license to abuse people to and to demonstrate force in inappropriate situations. And then, when caught, they lie in the anticipation that the system of fellow cops, prosecutors, and judges will back them up.
Yep, you were right to draw, here's why:
A convenience store is private property, the owner, or his representative decides who can carry.
Ideally the establishment would be posted, but it's still trespass for an individual (except law enforcement) to carry when privately restricted.
Undercover isn't law enforcement to the property owner 'till he shows his badge.
Your actions, given the specifics of the situation were reasonable.
Yep, you were right to draw, here's why:
A convenience store is private property, the owner, or his representative decides who can carry.
Ideally the establishment would be posted, but it's still trespass for an individual (except law enforcement) to carry when privately restricted.
Undercover isn't law enforcement to the property owner 'till he shows his badge.
Your actions, given the specifics of the situation were reasonable.
cops not under cover should still look and dress professionally, considering at any point in time they can be called to duty.
undercover cops need to be especially careful under cover, and should not be armed as they are not supposed to be identifiable as cops (no badges). if they are, they need to be treated as any other unlicensed criminal for the sake of their cover.
Assuming that it's true that the cop was pointing a gun at his wife, how does that make it "petty"?
I think you're trying so hard to be politically correct that your brain fell out.
Reason 9458761 not to live in CT.
The “road rage” leading up to the drawing of weapons was avoidable, as well as petty.
it is rare the undercovers get caught by uniformed police, but if they do they go through the motions but are quickly and discreetly released.
as for non-undercovers who are off-duty, they can dress however they like. most large departments have grooming standards that must be adhered to when it comes to hair, fingernails and the like.
“One of the rules of concealed carry is concealment, he broke the rule.”
Yes he apparently did however that is not adequate cause to pull down on someone. I would not be in your establishment ever again if I knew where it was.
Using that attitude cops would be justified in drawing their guns every time they encounter a CCW holder.
“Then the altercation escalated and they both pulled over to the side of the road.”
I don’t have an issue with honking the horn and even the one finger salute on very rare occasions. However pulling over is only asking for trouble.
Because they left the dog at home.
“Ideally the establishment would be posted, but it’s still trespass for an individual (except law enforcement) to carry when privately restricted.”
Its only trespass after he’s notified they aren’t allowed and then its armed trespass. Thats assuming there is not an appropriate notice on the entrance.
I wasn’t there but it seems reckless. I’ve been in similar situations and a lot can be done without drawing the weapon. The undercover cop could have responded differently and escalated it dramatically.
Having a weapon does not make a person bad. They are bad regardless. If CCW holders start seeing possession itself as a threat then the anti’s are just a short generation away from a full ban.
A minor technicality that you would have to get by a jury of 12, and which doesn't apply if the establishment sells any kind of alcoholic beverage.
The undercover cop could have responded differently and escalated it dramatically.
Sort of like a criminal, eh? Providing further evidence of irresponsibility on his part, and justifying the need for the property owner to defend himself.
If CCW holders start seeing possession itself as a threat then the anti’s are just a short generation away from a full ban.
Twisted logic. The stats still stand: When private citizens or police pull guns for defense (with or without CCW) the police are six times more likely to shoot the wrong (innocent) person.
Hardly an acceptable reason to disarm any citizen.
“Adequate cause”?
“A minor technicality that you would have to get by a jury of 12, and which doesn’t apply if the establishment sells any kind of alcoholic beverage.”
Its not a minor technicality. Its a public place and they can’t charge you with trespass until you have refused to leave. There is as and armed trespass; one is usually a felony.
“Sort of like a criminal, eh? Providing further evidence of irresponsibility on his part, and justifying the need for the property owner to defend himself.”
No not like a criminal; like any person would do if they were attacked without provocation. He could have thought it was being attacked and responded like cops sometimes do. IMO, it was reckless but again, I wasn’t there.
“When private citizens or police pull guns for defense (with or without CCW) the police are six times more likely to shoot the wrong (innocent) person.”
Thought it was 11 times?
“Hardly an acceptable reason to disarm any citizen.”
Thats my point. He didn’t know the guy was a cop, a criminal, or just another CCW holder. The mere possession of a firearm does not make him a criminal. Certainly be away, perhaps put your hand on your weapon. Merely seeing the tip of a holster is slight justification IMO. How many criminals wear holsters anyway?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.