Posted on 06/01/2007 5:41:16 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued
However, now I do not feel alone. Peggy Noonan has a new column up in the Wall Street Journal Opinion Journal. She has clearly said what has been getting me down. I think I knew what was up, but couldn't put a finger on it. I knew it centered around the immigration debate, and the way our congressional leaders are behaving. That sentiment especially includes Mr. Bush too, but when I read this column, I felt like Charlie Brown yelling at Lucy at her Psychology booth when he yells, "That's it!" when trying to identify why he can't get into the Christmas spirit.
Try this clip on for size :
The White House doesn't need its traditional supporters anymore, because its problems are way beyond being solved by the base. And the people in the administration don't even much like the base. Desperate straits have left them liberated, and they are acting out their disdain. Leading Democrats often think their base is slightly mad but at least their heart is in the right place. This White House thinks its base is stupid and that its heart is in the wrong place.
For almost three years, arguably longer, conservative Bush supporters have felt like sufferers of battered wife syndrome. You don't like endless gushing spending, the kind that assumes a high and unstoppable affluence will always exist, and the tax receipts will always flow in? Too bad! You don't like expanding governmental authority and power? Too bad. You think the war was wrong or is wrong? Too bad.
But on immigration it has changed from "Too bad" to "You're bad."
The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic--they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said,
(Excerpt) Read more at redstate.com ...
One more note: I just read what you wrote about being “Open Borders”. I used to be a strong advocate for “Open Borders for Peaceful People” when I was part of the Libertarian Party.
My views on this subject changed drastically after 9/11, and after living in West Denver for 2 1/2 years. I too, understand that many of these people are “good” in their hearts and souls. The problem as I see it though is that they, unlike others, made the choice of coming here without following the laws. I think it is detrimental to our society, and to those who have come here as legal immigrants to excuse their choices.
Many of the legal immigrants whom I worked with in Denver are very much against amnesty for these people (”If I followed the rules why can’t they?”). I think if anything we should listen to what they’re saying about this. I can’t imagine that amnesty, or even a guest worker program would decrease the problems of racism already present against even legal immigrants.
I’m all for easing some of the legal immigration requirements, but IMHO, anyone who enters the country illegally should not be allowed to stay — after all they KNEW this was the risk when they made the decision to come.
JVeritas, I have tremendous respect and gratitude for the help you have given to our country in regards to translating the Iraq Docs. However, I think your viewpoints on this issue are wrong... Here’s why:
Illegal immigrants who are working under assumed identities or for cash under the table do not pay income taxes. Likewise, their employers (at least the ones paying cash) do not have to pay Social Security taxes for these people. (Employers pay above and beyond to Social Security for every worker they employ — this is separate from the deduction taken from your check.)
Trying to put myself in their shoes, and understanding that human nature includes greed I can’t imagine why people would think that these people would want to come forward, and begin paying the crushing burden inherent in our tax code.
Also, I can’t imagine that employers who have ‘enjoyed’ increased profits due to sidestepping the tax requirements will wish to change their ways. And, if someone points to the increased fines associated with this new bill — the ‘benefits’ far outweigh any fines the employers MAY have to pay someday. For years these people have lived off the backs of others, and the costs of complying with the law obviously far outweigh any possible fines they will receive or they would not take that risk to begin with.
All of this is really a moot point because we have for a long time had problems with enforcement of the laws already on our books. Judging by past performance on the part of “ICE” (formerly the INS), including some of the most recent raids which have not resulted in employers facing the fines they should be receiving then I don’t know how we can hope that new laws will be enforced, either.
Chezwick... I see you are up to your old tricks again. You accuse people of being xenophobes, and racists and then you ask the question of how many Mexicans have carried out homicide bombings?
How about this question? How many illegal immigrants (of any nationality) have committed ID Theft/Fraud, & Tax Evasion. How many illegal immigrants are responsible for homicides using any sort of weapon or method?
Simply because someone points to the country of Mexico (where the vast majority of illegal immigrants in this country are from due to our sharing a border) doesn’t mean that they are racists, or xenophobes!
I’m getting really tired of explaining this to you. Do you understand what the term bigot really means, because it seems that you are the one who exemplifies this term...
Look, NO ONE denies that these people broke the law. Right now I am listening to "Yellow Submarine" on my MP3 list, which is (although I have paid for the album in the past) technically "illegal." I have, even today, broken the laws regulating speed limits. More than that, I have been legally drunk while driving, left income unreported, shoplifted, insulted and assaulted a police officer, bought and sold enough illicit drugs to be an amateur pharmacist..., and other things best left unmentioned (my life has been colorful!). What I am saying is that some of those offenses are serious and call for jail time, and some are peccadilloes. It is the absolute unwillingness of many freepers to grant this distinction to illegal immigrants while they gleefully give it to themselves that call for accusations of "hypocrisy." And it is hypocrisy.
That is one of the stupidest statements I have seen in a while. The only government involvement in this is the intentional export by Mexico of its poor (who would be its potential revolutionaries). They turn a potential social problem into the second largest source of cash coming into the country (behind oil, eclipsing tourism). They are not trying to "colonize" the USA, except in the fevered imaginations of idiots who have seen a link somewhere on the internet to "La Raza" or some extremist group with 5 members meeting on the campus of San Jacinto state. These are generally the same clowns who breathlessly wave the latest alarmist headline from World Net Daily as though it were freshly descended with Moses from the Mount. Alarmist loons who look for something to be scared and/or pissed off about. I think they are older, retired, and confusing their need for Metamucil with clear eyed understanding of domestic and foreign threats.
what is this, then?
Chezwick... I see you are up to your old tricks again. You accuse people of being xenophobes, and racists and then you ask the question of how many Mexicans have carried out homicide bombings?
How about this question? How many illegal immigrants (of any nationality) have committed ID Theft/Fraud, & Tax Evasion.
Ummm... Slow down and read what I wrote again, especially the first word. Then go and read the post I was responding to. It was not I who brought up homicidal bombings.
Or, are you really B. Chezwick and just forgot you’re signed in under DreamsofPolycarp???
NO. and no one I know of does. Why can't you deal with the real ISSUES instead of mindlessly bringing up the same stupid straw men over and over? Most people (people outside the howling chambers of FR)do not advocate the illogical, unworkable, and just plain dumb idea of expelling 20 million people. Rather, they advocate what MOST crimes get in our justice system..., financial retribution. The idea of uprooting these people, many of whom have been here for YEARS and expelling them because of some weird idea you have conjured up of the high and holy inviolable immigration statutes is neither sensible, workable, ethical, or held by a plurality (much less a majority) of Americans.
How about replying to ANYTHING I addressed to you, instead of misconstruing what I’ve posted.
I will give your reply all the respect it deserves. You really are a shriveled little hateful one, arent' you. Are you pinging your "buddies" to come to your aid or something? Pathetic.
No one I know advocates this. I feel like the eldil asking Ransom "is your friend hurt in the brain?"
The real question is "when you run out of straw men to attack, will you have anything left to say?"
I AM dealing with the real issues, these are not straw man arguments, and Tax Fraud, and ID Theft are just 2 ISSUES that need to be discussed in relation to this amnesty bill.
Again, why don’t you respond to the two posts I put up this morning that I wrote to you specifically, and that addressed the things you spoke of earlier? This bill is about much more than simple amnesty or deportation as well...
I have just given you two examples. Tell me something, how is quoting exactly what you said and asking for an explanation "misconstruing" it?
All you have done so far is pitch a fit because you didn't like me responding a pitcher of bile you threw at another poster. I thought what you said was disingenuous, and a totally wack analogy (she never brought up the false ID and tax stuff.... YOU are the one insistent on contrasting that with the terrorist stuff). You responded that maybe I was logging in with two id's (now THERE is a razor sharp intellect who goes right to the heart of an argument, folks!), and then griped about me "misconstruing" what you said (by QUOTING you?????) and then asking if I would deal with anything you actually posted to me, while you pinged all your buds. You are really something. Anyway Sorry, you now have three responses, including this one. Go at it. I love to see you folks get all exasperated. I just wish I had video so I could see your heads spin around and projectile vomit and all that.
This BILL advocates treating illegal immigrants who have comitted this crime with less punishment than U.S. citizens receive.
I’ve got a lot of problems with this bill, besides rewarding criminals... How about the fact that this puts HS Graduates here illegally ahead of those who have followed the immigration laws in getting their green cards? One of the biggest issues I have with this bill is that the ones pushing for it are lying about what it really does.
I know of many around the world, and many here legally right now who have waited DECADES for the chance to be here, but because these people’s parents came here illegally it means that they will have a green card in 3 years, AND also get Federal Tuition Assistance paid with by citizens’ tax dollars to boot?
Until you stop spewing your rhetoric, and taking my comments out of context, as well as saying I’m attacking straw men I’m really not interested in debating you about this bill.
Frankly, you don’t sound any different than the other White House trolls who have been on these boards the last few days.
Well, we agree that this bill sucks, but then YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT, because you have already responded to a specific post where I said thought the bill was "poison" and would destroy the Republican Party.
I have other problems than the ones you listed, specifically I believe that those here illegally should have to demonstrate they have paid AT LEAST three years of taxes, and be hit with a HEFTY fine for "jumping line." There is no insistence that back taxes be paid in this bill, and the fines are minimal.
My problem with your "solutions" that you are like a bunch of moralists lining up to hector some unmarried pregnant woman by railing at her about the immorality of unmarried sex. We are a little LATE for that sermon! The question is, how do we now deal with the situation we now have. YOU AIN'T GONNA GET SOME MORALITY PLAY OUT OF THIS!!! If you grant "justice" to some Taiwanese or Polish engineer who wants to immigrate, and define that by expelling MILLIONS of people first, then you need to learn how not to gag on the gnats, dearie. Camels go down much harder.
So, if you want to fight against this bill, SIGN ME UP. It is a mess. But if your alternative is to create human misery on a scale that makes the Palestinian refugees look like a weekend camping trip, then I say take your willingness to turn your back on the suffering of millions for the sake of some twisted, perverted moralism and, simply, shove it. (not only that, It ain't gonna happen)
The pitcher of bile I threw at another poster was also in response to something they said to me on another thread, and their insistence that anyone against this bill is a racist. They then responded to another poster on this thread by talking about “Mexican homicidal bombings” and when I saw what they had written I called them on it.
Again, read what I wrote to you earlier this morning — here are the links if you need them...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1843422/posts?page=961#961
&
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1845043/posts?page=172#172
Oh, and I’m perfectly fine as far as ‘pitching a fit’, thanks for your concern. I will admit it is frustrating trying to debate with you when you can’t understand what I’ve written. To say, quoting my post, that I equated Homicidal Bombings with ID Theft & Tax Fraud is simply ridiculous.
As for accusing you of having two login IDs — it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen it here, and considering you didn’t respond to what I wrote to you earlier, but instead responded to what I had wrote to Chezwick I thought perhaps you had forgotten you were signed in as “Dreams” and that you were just reading through the thread and hit the reply button. My apologies if you are not Chezwick, but you two do sound a lot alike (you both resort to ad hominem attacks). But, I suppose that makes your intellect razor-sharp in comparison to mine, eh?
And to think, I tried to be respectful when you revealed yourself to be of questionable character when you admitted to all the crimes you have committed in your ‘colorful’ life. I won’t make that mistake again. You do not do the people who share your view on this bill any favors. And, I don’t like to keep the company of thieves, those who assault police officers, drug dealers, and drunk drivers so I’ll say Adieu to you...
FYI: The only reason I’m responding is that you posted this before I responded with my last post.
I’m only ‘late’ due to the fact that our government is the one that created this problem in the first place, if they enforced the laws already on the books we wouldn’t be in this position.
Oh, and you mention the Palestinian refugees??? How many years has it been, now? They are STILL refugees? Hmmm... it sounds an awful lot like you are NOT on our side in the current WOT with that remark. Are you really a conservative, or just another troll?
Oh yes, and now you speak of how I’m going to ignore the plight of the poor suffering people??? I do not have sympathy for illegal immigrants of any nationality when there are thousands from every country across this globe who have followed all the rules.
I’m glad you don’t like this bill, you’re right it does suck...
No it is not and no they did not. I just went through ALL this person's recent posts, and there is nothing in there remotely related to the contrast you brought up in ANY post to you. Plus you lie when you state that the person said anyone against this bill is racist. You simply lie.
I brought up my own life as a walking illustration of how there are SERIOUS crimes and then there are illegalities that have all the gravitas of a parking ticket. It is a mistake to equate acts of terrorism with crimes related to working/living as an illegal here. The two are not in the same universe.
My apologies if you are not Chezwick, but you two do sound a lot alike (you both resort to ad hominem attacks).
And the amazing thing is, folks, she sees ABSOLUTELY NO IRONY IN THAT SENTENCE!!!! This is better than comedy central. Really.
As to you not "keeping company" with such a despicable character as myself, it is a free country. I am sure I will get over it. However, if you insist on loudly farting in public meetings, don't be surprised if you turn around and see me laughing. Ta ta and good night.
sigh, the Palestinan refugees are the creation of the ARAB states, not Israel. Good night and sweet dreams, you are just boring.
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