Darn, I just noticed I missed the sewer ninja assassin.
Posted on 06/01/2007 5:36:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
A storied former prosecutor scrutinizes one of the most debated crimes in American history The murder of President John F. Kennedy has provoked by far more suspicion, argument, obsession, and especially book-publishing than any similar event in American history. Now famed lawyer and true-crime writer Vincent Bugliosi has produced what he hopes will be the book to exceed all others. "Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy" may do that, in weight (5.3 pounds) as well as content, but it's clear that if his editor hadn't insisted he turn over the manuscript after 21 years of labor, the almost-superhuman effort might have wrecked his health.
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
According to your intellectually lazy logic that you use to dismiss the physical mechanics of Oswald's shooting ability, you're not even sure that Amelia Earhart's plane ever again made contact with the surface of the Earth, much less crashed somewhere.
ping
I haven’t read either one. I just find the testimonies and the photos on the web.
Your statement makes no sense. I haven’t commented in this thread on Oswald’s shooting ability.
There’s nothing flawed or lazy about what I stated. Trying to refute it by misstating it or confusing it is absurd.
Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here. We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine.
The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer. It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals. Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over.
You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!' timing scenario when it's been proven that it's just flat wrong.
That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.
You're plainly saying that it cannot be proven that Oswald didn't murder the President. Period.
Is that what you said?
No existing evidence can prove to you that Oswald even fired a single shot at Kennedy?
-- My recent posts on that theory have yet to be addressed. - Feel free to dazzle us with your logic.
I think that others here (and in previous threads) are doing a swell job of showing timing data, wound ballistic data, victim testimony, and forensic medical data showing that the single bullet theory is the only suitable and logical answer for shot #2.
If you disagree on timing, you're just wrong. If you disagree on wounding potential and likelihood of shot #2, where's your other bullet(s)?
The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203
Fine. Start the clock on a 2.3 second cycle of the rifles action [the W.C. 'best speed'] correlated with the Z-film camera speed of 18.3 frames per second. Say 42 frames to cycle the action. The second shot could not occur before frame 245.
The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227
Again, fine, - if this is when the second shot occurred, we would have to backtrack at least 42 frames, placing the first shot at frame 185, minimum. - And as, according to the Report, Oswalds view was blocked by the tree from frame 166 to 190, this presents a timeline problem.
Frame 228 Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung.
Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine.
I will find the name if you'd like.
No need, as [according to your own first shot at Frame 203 timeline] it is still a full 10 Frames before a shot could be made by even the fastest expert rifleman the Commission could find.
I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.
I too have walked the area, and doubt that the angle of the first shot could ricochet [off a tree?] to strike the curb down by the underpass.
Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.
Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Kid comments:
Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here.
How amusing that you fail to show my "error" of calculation. I've show above, in mathematical detail, how the rifles action cannot be cycled in less than 42 frames of Z-film time, and how that time constraint simply does not fit in with what the film shows.
Feel free to show us how it would.
We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine. The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer.
The proof is in the details.
At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. -"
Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313.
That is 85 frames, and cycling the action twice takes 84, - by an expert.
It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals.
So you all claim. Not a one of those "replicated" shoots have been done with enough detail to be credible to reasonable observers. Show me your proof that they have.
Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over. You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!'
And you just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have had a problem shooting that fast!' Over and over and over and over and over.
That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.
You haven't even added up the numbers, - because they don't fit Specters theory.
I find it sad that you somehow feel compelled to defend that man and that Report. - Me, - I'd find it easier to defend Reno about Waco.
The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203
Fine. Start the clock on a 2.3 second cycle of the rifles action [the W.C. 'best speed'] correlated with the Z-film camera speed of 18.3 frames per second. Say 42 frames to cycle the action. The second shot could not occur before frame 245.
The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227
Again, fine, - if this is when the second shot occurred, we would have to backtrack at least 42 frames, placing the first shot at frame 185, minimum. - And as, according to the Report, Oswalds view was blocked by the tree from frame 166 to 190, this presents a timeline problem.
Frame 228 Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung.
Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine.
I will find the name if you'd like.
No need, as [according to your own first shot at Frame 203 timeline] it is still a full 10 Frames before a shot could be made by even the fastest expert rifleman the Commission could find.
I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.
I too have walked the area, and doubt that the angle of the first shot could ricochet [off a tree?] to strike the curb down by the underpass.
Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.
Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Kid comments:
Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here.
How amusing that you fail to show my "error" of calculation. I've show above, in mathematical detail, how the rifles action cannot be cycled in less than 42 frames of Z-film time, and how that time constraint simply does not fit in with what the film shows.
Feel free to show us how it would.
We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine. The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer.
The proof is in the details.
At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. -"
Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313.
That is 85 frames, and cycling the action twice takes 84, - by an expert.
It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals.
So you all claim. Not a one of those "replicated" shoots have been done with enough detail to be credible to reasonable observers. Show me your proof that they have.
Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over. You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!'
And you just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have had a problem shooting that fast!' Over and over and over and over and over.
That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.
You haven't even added up the numbers, - because they don't fit Specters theory.
I find it sad that you somehow feel compelled to defend that man and that Report. - Me, - I'd find it easier to defend Reno about Waco.
You know, that magic bullet that leaves no trace of itself whatsoever but allows bullet #2 to only deal some portion of the wounds claimed by Specter's single bullet theory. It's the magic bullet that does the rest of the wounds to Kennedy (and perhaps presumably, Connally) yet cannot be accounted for in any way.
Where is this vanishing bullet?
Consider this: We're compelled to satisfy you and other WC skeptics by showing you the relative height of the two wounded men in the limousine, the bullet hole in Kennedy's suit coat as it relates to his dress shirt hole discrepancy caused by his back brace girdle, new video of Kennedy riding in the motorcade with the same rumpled fabric in his suit , the nick in his necktie knot from the exit wound of the bullet, the medical analysis showing that the emergency tracheotomy is NOT a frontal wound, the damage to the interior of the vehicle, the position of Gov. Connally matching with the bullet pathing, the frame by frame analysis of the victims and bystanders reactions to the shots as recorded on the Zapruder film, the X-ray data showing that all of the fragmented bullet material to Kennedy is in the right side of his cranium, the fragmented dishing of the impact wound on the bone of Kennedy's skull showing an entrance wound from the back along with the halo bruising of the upper dermis of Kennedy's head, the physics of 'jet effect', the two-frame forward lurch of bullet impact of shot #3, the wounded spectator downrange in the line of fire hit by fragments of shot #1, and the nuclear accelerator data showing the molecular signature of the lead/bismuth/antimony/copper material and rifling pattern used in the bullets fired from Oswald's rifle 'C2766' to the exclusion of any other weapon.
In our mission to prove this, we're charged with the labor of shooting down every stupid 'UFOs vs. Bigfoot' crackpot theory that deals with explosive bullets, sewer snipers, the Grassy Knoll, the 'pristine bullet' ("Hah! That dawg don't hunt."), switched bodies in caskets, clandestine burials at sea by the Kennedy family, deliberately botched autopsies, forged medical records, CIA M14 rifles rechambered for some wildcat 6.5x51mm round using Carcano projectiles on top of a .308 Winchester case, deliberately confused shot timing presumptions, paranoiac rantings about the US Federal Reserve, irrelevant Dallas police department Dictabelt recordings, and most annoyingly, screenplay dialogue from the execrable Oliver Stone movie JFK.
Yet you can just dismiss all of this and say that the kill shot came from the front and not produce a shred of material evidence. You just say "Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front." and haven't got a single thing to stand on to prove it. No particle data, no bullet fragments, no witnesses, no physics data, no wounding data, no medical data. Nothing. We avalanche you with data and evidence supporting what really happened, you offer nothing to support your claim of shadowy unnamed conspirators firing vanishing bullets.
Now truly, tpaine. Is this intellectually fair of you?
I have the sinking feeling that we're just going to have to go over this all again in the next JFK thread that pops up; We smash the ridiculous theories invented by Marxist diversionists and irrational paranoiacs, but you just say "Nope nope. Shot came from the front. It's a conspiracy." offer zero credible evidence of your own and dismiss everything else. If that's the case, let's just stop now, petition Jim Robinson for an 'ignore' feature on FR, and you can go off and rally around the people who think that the Apollo landings were shot in a warehouse in Area 51.
Actually, I did prove he did it or at least the testimony of the witnesses and the evidence did.
The problem the conspiracy theorists have is they can’t prove someone other than Oswald did it.
I’ll give an example. Since some people can’t understand how the pyramids were built, they don’t believe people built the pyramids. Enter the space aliens.
So Oswald killed Kennedy. But there are those who disbelieve it due to an old saying, “The peasant can’t kill the King”. It shakes their sensibilities.
The next explanation is the “hate group”. They hate someone so much, they try to pin the murder on them, whether it’s LBJ or “Bush did it”.
There’s also another small group. That’s the group who think they are smarter than the balistics experts, the pathologists and the doctors/coroner. Since the experts have one view, that group which has an authority problem will take another opposite view just to be “smarter” than the experts.
I almost forgot the largest group. They saw a movie. It must be true.
Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313."
1. See, now this is probably the first part where you're all messed up. You're saying that Oswald cycled the Carcano and missed the motorcade and this bullet struck the curb?
2. You do know that we've (Shooter 2.5 and I, anyway) adopt the 8.5 second timeline proven by Posner with the out of spec calibration of Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera? Are you or are you not aware of that?
Do you believe that Zapruder's early 1960s-vintage home movie camera was tuned like a Swiss chronograph to match time in real life? Are you aware of any testimony covering this in any investigation of the Kennedy Assassination? Zapruder was not using a Sony Handicam from Best Buy. Analog, tpaine, not digital.
We're saying (and have been saying for quite some time here on FR) that the Warren Commission was essentially correct in their final assessment of the lone gunman/single bullet theory. Your theory that Oswald couldn't have made the shots based on timing and as a result that the Warren Commission is incorrect (and presumably, proves evidence of conspiracy) rests fully on the potential for mistake that the WC assumed in that Zapruder's camera matches real time precisely. Either that, or you're trying to play off one FR poster's discrepancies in deductions (Pistolshot) against others (Mine and Shooter's) as lending weight to your theory, or both. Either way, that's flimsy.
You know what? Never mind all that. Just tell us where your magic bullet is. That one that killed Kennedy that Oswald didn't fire.
This might help. They even included the two inch impact movement which I wish I had known about earlier. I do notice they have it at 312 instead of 313. Someone’s head moving two inches in 1/18 of a second is how many Miles An Hour????
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous “Ear-witnesses” recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket — which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper’s view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder’s view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy’s hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis’s photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy’s leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy’s back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally’s right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally’s suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy’s arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of “Thorburn’s Position”, as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally’s hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy’s torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally’s hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he’d just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally’s mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens’ picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy’s head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy’s head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy’s right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.
337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a “pristine” (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:
Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993
Truly Kid, if you can produce a post of mine saying; "-- Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front. --", - or even anything remotely like that, - I'll agree that you are being intellectually fair. - Whereas we both know you are not.
I have the sinking feeling that we're just going to have to go over this all again in the next JFK thread that pops up;
Probably will, primarily because you fellas feel driven to defend an indefensible Report, one full of ridiculous theories.
We smash the ridiculous theories invented by Marxist diversionists and irrational paranoiacs, but you just say "Nope nope. Shot came from the front. It's a conspiracy." offer zero credible evidence of your own and dismiss everything else.
If that's the case,
That's not the case. Your hype about Marxists proves that.
let's just stop now, petition Jim Robinson for an 'ignore' feature on FR,
I'm with you there. I've been petitioning for one ever since the 'don't post to me or you'll get banned' scheme became fashionable.
and you can go off and rally around the people who think that the Apollo landings were shot in a warehouse in Area 51.
Amusing. You're the one here playing the tinfoil game, not me.
What? You were just in a thread a few weeks ago going on and on about 'Back and to the left' of the Grassy Knoll/Sewer Shooter conspiracists. That's all Front-Shotism.
Front shot, back shot, WC timing's wrong, whatever. Never mind where from, you're saying there's at least one more bullet.
Just tell us where it is.
Darn, I just noticed I missed the sewer ninja assassin.
Now the rifle must be cycled, [says the Specter theory] - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313."
1. See, now this is probably the first part where you're all messed up. You're saying that Oswald cycled the Carcano and missed the motorcade and this bullet struck the curb?
You're the one "all messed up". Specter's theory says that.
2. You do know that we've adopt the 8.5 second timeline proven by Posner with the out of spec calibration of Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera? Are you or are you not aware of that?
Adopt any opinion you want. Why should I care?
Do you believe that Zapruder's early 1960s-vintage home movie camera was tuned like a Swiss chronograph to match time in real life?
The House Committee established that it operated at 18.3 frames per second. You dispute that fact? Why?
Are you aware of any testimony covering this in any investigation of the Kennedy Assassination? Zapruder was not using a Sony Handicam from Best Buy. Analog, tpaine, not digital.
What speed do you claim the camera ran at?
We're saying (and have been saying for quite some time here on FR) that the Warren Commission was essentially correct in their final assessment of the lone gunman/single bullet theory.
Yes, you have. - Why is that so important to you?
Your theory that Oswald couldn't have made the shots based on timing and as a result that the Warren Commission is incorrect rests fully on the potential for mistake that the WC assumed in that Zapruder's camera matches real time precisely.
The camera does indeed run at a real speed. I can accept it runs at 18.3 FPS, - why can't you?
Either that, or you're trying to play off one FR poster's discrepancies in deductions (Pistolshot) against others as lending weight to your theory, or both. Either way, that's flimsy.
The Z-film's timing proves there is a discrepancy between what Specter theorizes, and what actually happened on that film. That's not flimsy, its reality.
You know what? Never mind all that. Just tell us where your magic bullet is. That one that killed Kennedy that Oswald didn't fire.
I'm not disputing that the last bullet fired could have come from the depository. Or that Oswald could have fired it. -- Never have.
>>all of the evidence gathered — ballistic, material, witness, culpable, rational, motivational<<
I’m not ignoring anything. There has been no absolute PROOF that Oswald 1)acted alone or for that matter, 2) fired at the motorcade. Even if there was, there isn’t absolute proof that Oswald fired the shots that hit anyone. Proof in this case is the lower standard common in civil cases of preponderance of the evidence. Forget about reasonable doubt; Oswald couldn’t be held liable in a civil case if you go through ALL the evidence.
>>You’re plainly saying that it cannot be proven that Oswald didn’t murder the President. Period.<<
No, that’s NOT what I’m saying. I’m saying it can not be proven (or at least, hasn’t yet) that Oswald killed Kennedy. I’m not sure where you’re getting the double negative there.
>>Is that what you said?<<
Nope.
>>No existing evidence can prove to you that Oswald even fired a single shot at Kennedy?<<
There is conflicting evidence here. I’m not going to go through it all, but will say this: IF Oswald WAS on the 6th floor window during the killing time, he did not fire the fatal head shot. That came from the front.
IF it came from the front.
PROVE IT.
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