Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee
The Christian attorney who fought to keep Terry Schiavo alive says the three leading GOP presidential candidates don't understand the important disability issues involved in the widely publicized 2005 case.
During a recent Republican presidential debate in California, the candidates were asked whether Congress was right to intervene in the Terry Schiavo case by attempting to prevent the state of Florida from removing the disabled woman's feeding tube. The answers varied.
Mitt Romney, former governor of Massachusetts, said he thought it "was a mistake" for Congress to get involved and the matter should have been left at the state level. Senator John McCain said Congress "probably acted too hastily." And former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani called the case a "family dispute."
David Gibbs III of the Christian Law Association says the United States gives greater due process to convicted murderers than to innocent disabled people. The former attorney for Schiavo's parents argues that Congress did the right thing when it intervened to provide her those rights.
"Many of the candidates are following the political wind, if you will, instead of showing leadership and saying, 'You know what? That was good public policy back then. We need to stand up for the disabled. We need to stand up for the senior citizens,'" Gibbs says. "We need to have that compassion for vulnerable people as opposed to taking the mindset that those people that just don't matter," he notes.
It is disingenuous, the Christian attorney contends, for candidates to claim they are pro-life but not be willing to grant due process rights to the disabled. "If you're pro-life, you have to be pro-life at every step," he says.
"Please understand: our founding fathers understood that you don't have any liberty, our Constitution doesn't matter, if you don't protect the innocent life of the citizens," Gibbs explains. "That's why they talked about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- your free speech, your freedom of religion, your right to own a gun or [receive] due process of law," he says. "If the government can kill you, you have no true liberty."
When Rudy Giuliani visited Florida he initially said he was in favor of assisting Terry Schiavo but later backpedaled from those comments, Gibbs points out. And in the recent GOP presidential debate, he says, only Kansas Senator Sam Brownback and Congressman Duncan Hunter of California got the issue right when they were asked about the Schiavo case.
Thank you.
With my dial-up I can only get You-Tube for a few seconds, but his voice was loud and strong, and the look on his face showed he was passionate about the govt. helping Terri.
“Can you imagine what Terri went through for 15 years with that jerk?”
Despite this she still wanted to live - what a strong-willed person she was.
Dr Hammesfahr specifically said vertebral and cord injuries. I don't see anyway you can prove there was a soft tissue injury at the time.
And who cares if it "goes with" Dr. Hammesfahr's finding? I do not represent Dr. Hammesfahr.
My mistake. You quoted him often and seemed to rely on his testimony. He was the only doctor I noted who claimed there was a neck injury of any kind, which you accepted despite other docs saying her neck rigidity was decerbrate rigidity. I can't remember if it was you or bjs1779 who were upset when I pointed out his known lie about being a Nobel prize nominee.
Yes, she is an inspriation. Even Dr. Gambone said the same before he withdrew form the case. Pure murder is was.
Prayers that will be in our lifetimes!
The wicked trio Schiavo, Felos and Greer await
the judgment of Almighty God! No washing the
blood off their hands at this point.
Nelson is employed by Thogmartin. Or should I say that he should say what Thogmartin wants him to say if he wants his job?A demonstrable untruth. Dr. Nelson is a chief medical examiner. Dr. Thogmartin is a chief medical examiner. Dr. Nelson is not his employee, and does not depend on Dr. Thogmartin for his job. So it is another spin, deception, what have you. The kindest I can say is it's deplorable willingness to say anything to make one's point, without bothering to check facts.
I don't bet on what patient's diagnoses are. They turn out to be what they turn out to be.
To suggest that either of these wildly improbable scenarios happened to Terri in the middle of a domestic dispute is abnegation of a medical professional's duty to look for abuse.
But many medical professionals did look for abuse. None found it. The theory lives on only in those determined to believe it despite lack of any evidence.
The obvious and statistically overwhelming cause is domestic violence. It has not been eliminated.
As I've said many times, it is possible, but there is no evidence for it. And one can't prove a negative in this case, any more than you can eliminate SADS as a possibility. General mortality statistics can't be used to diagnose individuals. I also will draw your attention again to your statistical cherry-picking: Deaths from asphyxia are at least as rare in Terri Schaivo's age group as deaths from SADS.
You can't use general statistics to diagnose individual cases. That you are trying to do that indicates you do not understand how medicine works for individual patients.
You sound upset by something.
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" But Dr. James Benz, who has fended off attacks on his own credibility, sidestepped the latest controversy to a certain extent after the associate medical examiner, Dr. Stephen Nelson, resigned recently to pursue other opportunities Nelson's resignation letter, effective May 15, is dated April 1 but wasn't sent to Assistant County Administrator Vince Bonvento until Wednesday, a few days after Bonvento told Benz of his concerns about Nelson's past"...
"Bonvento postponed the item for Tuesday's meeting when he learned for the first time of in Broward County...."
Nelson joined Benz's staff in 1993 after he quit the Broward Medical Examiner's Office amid charges that he botched a cause-of-death ruling, saying an 82-year-old Sunrise woman committed suicide. The woman's husband later confessed to strangling her...."
" Other controversies swirled around the clouded past of one of Benz's associates, Stephen Nelson, defense attorneys began using the issues to request second autopsies. "
Snips are from Sun-Sentinel 1996
No, he said his findings were consistent with them. I think he came to believe she did have such an injury, but he also allowed that she might not have. That view's no crime.
>> ...which you accepted despite other docs saying her neck rigidity was decerbrate rigidity
Don't tell me what I accept. The "other docs" in this case included Dr. Hammesfahr, and I made myself clear that they all took a ordinary and reasonable view. I just wanted to look further into the question. It might hold clues.
>> I can't remember if it was you or bjs1779 who were upset when I pointed out his known lie about being a Nobel prize nominee.
Nobody's upset. It's an ad hominem attack. You insist you are only interested in medical issues, yes? This ain't one.
Who said you should? But you can and should use them to focus your search and not waste time on million-to-one shots. The government uses statistics all the time to tell ERs and physicians to look for abuse.
The heck it is. Dr. Thogmartin alone had authority in this case. He was the boss. Dr. Nelson was there only at his invitation and his sufferance.
That's what the bulimia theorists used to say to us before the autopsy report. Now that theory is gone, they're gone, and Michael's only alibi is gone. Who's defending HIM now? Million-to-one shot players.
You stick to science. We'll put the science in its human context. People understand a man hurting his wife, even if science is struck dumb at the thought.
Actually, no. If you look at it in more detail, the brainstem is actually composed of three structures, the midbrain, the pons, and the medulla oblongata. Technical sites describe decerebrate posturing as an injury to the midbrain.
There is a hierarchy of what gets damaged by lack of oxygen and blood supply. Check out this page. Relevant quote:
here is also a regional variation in susceptibility to HIE.[Hypoxic Ischemic Encephalopathy] The cerebral cortex and striatum are more sensitive than the thalamus, and the thalamus in turn is more sensitive than the brainstem. The spinal cord may remain uninjured even when all the rest of the CNS is severely damaged.and
The most common pattern of injury in HIE is selective loss of sensitive neurons (pyramidal cells of CA1 of the hippocampus, layers 3, 5, and 6 of the neocortex, Purkinje cells, and striatal neurons). Mild HIE, such as a brief cardiac arrest, may affect CA1 pyramidal neurons of the hippocampus only. Bilateral hippocampal damage (see below) causes Korsakoff's amnesia. This is a memory disorder characterized by inability to retain new information (anterograde amnesia) and a less severe defect of recall of old memories (retrograde amnesia). Diffuse cortical, thalamic, or combined neuronal loss (with intact brainstem) results in dementia or the persistent vegetative state (loss of cognitive functions and emotion with preservation of sleep-wake cycles, autonomic function, and breathing).So for anoxia to cause brainstem injury, means that since the brainstem is relatively resistant, the cortex is already damaged. To have decerebrate posturing, the midbrain is affected, but to breathe, the medulla oblongata is functioning. So there is some brainstem damage, but the “lower” part is functioning.
>> There are several sports that can supply that sort of acceleration.
What is there that sport can do that personal violence can't
Unless someone is using a method to increase acceleration, plenty. Skiing, snowboarding, snowmobiling, car racing, diving, are a few examples of sport that have high speed injury possibilities. Person to person unarmed fighting can’t come close to that kind of acceleration.
Please provide proof that the rigidity in her neck was from a cause other than the decerebrate rigidity she had in other muscles.
Of course there is evidence. Consider even one item, from post #1311
“Jackie Rhoades, testified at the 1996 guardianship hearing that she knew Terri was being abused, that she frequently saw her with bruises on her arms and legs, and that Terri was afraid of Michael. Jackie further stated that Terri intended to divorce Michael, and that she and Terri were making plans to get an apartment together. Also, Terri’s brother Bobby also testified to his knowledge of Terri’s abuse, and corroborated much of Jackie’s testimony.”
Do you doctors ignore bruising on a woman in a troubled situation? A confirmed fight between husband and wife? A history of domestic strife? A looming divorce? Do you ignore Terri's phone call with a friend that night when she was so afraid of Michael's threats that she burst into tears and the friend offered her shelter?
Do you doctors ignore the only suspect's lies afterwards to police? You yourself usually make a big deal about lies or perceived lies. Why does a suspected assailant get a pass from you?
You just said we cannot prove a soft tissue injury. Yet there may have been one, yes? I don't doubt there was decerebrate rigidity, but that does not mean there was no other injury in the area. Why would decerebrate rigidity intensify pain near C4?
Wow! Whoever stopped Terri from breathing did a lot of damage to her.
Thanks for the ping!
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