What Does It Mean "The South Shall Rise Again":

The Wichita (KS) Eagle ^ | 23 May 2007 | Mark McCormick

[Rebeleye]

...he was stunned to see two large Confederate flags flying from trucks...emblazoned with the words "The South Shall Rise Again." I'm stunned, too, that people still think it is cool to fly this flag. Our society should bury these flags -- not flaunt them...because the Confederate flag symbolizes racial tyranny to so many... ...This flag doesn't belong on city streets, in videos or in the middle of civil discussion. It belongs in our past -- in museums and in history books -- along with the ideas it represents.

[Non-Sequitur]

Not so, the legislation was merely a ploy by the state to quash Mag. Laval's claim. I think this is where you may have obtained the said legislation.

Why would they need a 'ploy' to quash Laval's claims if not to transfer ownership to the federal government for the fort?

That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same,...

And? That meant that someone could not hide in the fort and avoid local civil or criminal proceedings. But before that the legislation said that the state did 'cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory...' What do you take that to mean?

[Non-Sequitur]

You must be from the eastern part of the north. NY, NJ, or even New England???

Nope.

Rudeness and aggressiveness are inborn traits of northeasterners.

And also apparently alive and well in rebel wannabes who choose to live in the North. Don't like it up here? Leave. Whining about it isn't going to help.

[rustbucket]

All the places had the same kinds of bars and restaurants and entertainment. South Carolina and Florida and Mississippi were all peas from the same pod it seems to me. Nothing bad. Nothing to write home about, either. If I had to sum up what I thought about my time in Dixie in one word, that word would be apathy. It's just the place where I did my time and then went home.

I'm sorry you were apathetic. Spending your off duty time in bars and restaurants being homesick must not have been fun. Of course, if Dixie were so blah, why did you spend nine years there?

Where was your curiosity or interest in the areas where you were stationed? Hopefully you toured some of the old forts, battlegrounds, plantations, museums, and gardens in those states. Was the local architecture not of interest to you? Did you not venture inland to see the mountains, forests, swamps, and boiling springs? Were you not captivated by the beauty of South Carolina's coastal marshes or the coral reefs in southern Florida or the white sand beaches in the Pensacola area?

[mac_truck]

Knock it off, you just made me want to have some low country boil...

[Non-Sequitur]

Spending your off duty time in bars and restaurants being homesick must not have been fun. Of course, if Dixie were so blah, why did you spend nine years there?

I was on active duty and went where I was ordered to go.

Where was your curiosity or interest in the areas where you were stationed? Hopefully you toured some of the old forts, battlegrounds, plantations, museums, and gardens in those states.

I wasn't the Civil War buff that I am now so I confess that I didn't take advantage of the surroundings as I could have.

Was the local architecture not of interest to you? Did you not venture inland to see the mountains, forests, swamps, and boiling springs? Were you not captivated by the beauty of South Carolina's coastal marshes or the coral reefs in southern Florida or the white sand beaches in the Pensacola area?

Not really, no. We have beautiful areas up North, too, and those down South were no more or less attractive. The Flint Hills in Kansas, the lakes and rivers and forests of Wisconsin and Minnesota, the rural areas of Vermont or New York or any other area of the North in the fall when the leaves are changing, the Great Lakes shore line. I'd put any of them on a par with your beaches and marshes and hills of the South. We have amazing architecture up here as well. Frank Lloyd Wright did his best work in the Chicago area and examples of his creations are all over.

I think that the difference is that I like diversity and people down South want everything to be the same. Growing up in Chicago you could go from one end of Lawerence Avenue to the other and literally travel the entire world by passing through different neighborhoods. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Poland, Ukraine, Sweden, Ireland, Russia, Israel, China, Korea all were clustered on or near Lawrence or Clark or points east and west. Amazing restaurants and music, fascinating people. Maybe I'm wrong but one thing I notice about the South and its people is you don't like change. You don't go for different. When you're home you want everything to be just like you, and get upset when it's not. New Orleans is as close as you come to ethnic, and even then it's Southern and Cajun and a lot of you all don't seem to value it. Confederatetrappedinthemidwest doesn't like what he politely terms 'minorities'. Well in the North everyone is a minority in some way or another, and while it causes tensions in some ways it's also what makes us interesting. While Confederatetrappedinthemidwest laments that Katrina didn't do the job to his satisfaction, I'm thinking where we would be without Dixieland jazz, or Memphis or Chicago or Kansas City jazz. So maybe that's why I was underwhelmed by the South, too much sameness. Maybe that's why it isn't home and could never be home. And I'm sure that's why people like Confederatetrappedinthemidwest or Beckysueb can't stand the North. Too much different for their tastes. That doesn't make them better than me or me better than them. It is what it is.

[smug]

' What do you take that to mean?Basically what you stated. But as lawyers tend to do, legal grounds for the Independent State of S.C. and afterwards the C.S. to contest the ownership of those forts. Nothing in law is clear cut. Read these exceptions

The sites of forts, arsenals, navy-yards, and other public property of the Federal Government were ceded by the States, within whose limits they were, subject to the condition, either expressed or implied, that they should be used solely and exclusively for the purposes for which they were granted. The ultimate ownership of the soil, or eminent domain, remains with the people of the State in which it lies, by virtue of their sovereignty. Thus, the State of Massachusetts has declared that— "The sovereignty and jurisdiction of the Commonwealth extend to all places within the boundaries thereof, subject only to such rights of concurrent jurisdiction as have been or may be granted over any places ceded by the Commonwealth to the United States."111 In the acts of cession of the respective States, the terms and conditions on which the grant is made are expressed in various forms and with differing degrees of precision.

The act of New York, granting the use of a site for the Brooklyn Navy-Yard, may serve as a specimen. It contains this express condition: "The United States are to retain such use and jurisdiction, so long as said tract shall be applied to the defense and safety of the city and port of New York, and no longer.... But the jurisdiction hereby ceded, and the exemption from taxation herein granted, shall continue in respect to said property, and to each portion thereof, so long as the same shall remain the property of the United States, and be used for the purposes aforesaid, and no longer." The cession of the site of the Watervliet Arsenal is made in the same or equivalent terms, except that, instead of "defense and safety of the city and port of New York," etc., the language is, "defense and safety of the said State, and no longer." And as Still sitting U.S. Senator form Mississippi J. Davis stated, When discussing the question of withdrawing the troops from the port of Charleston, he (Pres. Buchanan) yielded a ready assent to the proposition that the cession of a site for a fort, for purposes of public defense, lapses, whenever that fort should be employed by the grantee against the State by which the cession was made, on the familiar principle that any grant for a specific purpose expires when it ceases to be used for that purpose. The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government[pg 217]

I am not trying to justify the Confederate side and certainly not the Federal side, but just to point that there was a bone of contention, that as you have stated , I believe, that these points could and should have been hashed out, in court or through negotiations. Which I might add to Buchanan's discredit he failed to do, as Commissioners were sent to Washington for that very purpose as is stated in communications that they sent to Buchanan.

[smug]

I'm thinking where we would be without Dixieland jazz, or Memphis or Chicago or Kansas City jazz. So maybe that's why I was underwhelmed by the South, too much sameness.

Maybe we lived there at different times, or you was just too homesick. I found lots of diversity in both Charleston and Columbia. The Five Points, area of Columbia had great Jazz Musician's and the May fest held right there was a wealth of Greek, Thia, Chinese, influence's The Latin Dance Club on Two Notch Rd. was top notch. I spent lots of time with the Greek families that owner many of the Greek restaurants in Irmo, and James Island, They were right out of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" fun times roasting lamb in the front yard. By the way I use to drink at a bar 1985-1989 after leaving work, just north of one of the gates coming out of and on the same side of the street as the Charleston Naval Base near Cosgove and Spruill I think. Can't remember the name.

[smug]

Ah, this was meant for you, I must be over caffinated. I wrongly posted it to myself.

I'm thinking where we would be without Dixieland jazz, or Memphis or Chicago or Kansas City jazz. So maybe that's why I was underwhelmed by the South, too much sameness. Maybe we lived there at different times, or you was just too homesick. I found lots of diversity in both Charleston and Columbia. The Five Points, area of Columbia had great Jazz Musician's and the May fest held right there was a wealth of Greek, Thia, Chinese, influence's The Latin Dance Club on Two Notch Rd. was top notch. I spent lots of time with the Greek families that owner many of the Greek restaurants in Irmo, and James Island, They were right out of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" fun times roasting lamb in the front yard. By the way I use to drink at a bar 1985-1989 after leaving work, just north of one of the gates coming out of and on the same side of the street as the Charleston Naval Base near Cosgove and Spruill I think. Can't remember the name.

[LexBaird]

You don’t like what the government that ceased to exist in 1865 stated and died for, not my problem.

I've read the articles of secession for several of the Southern States. I've read the Confederate Constitution. I've read many of their leader's statements, in full context, such as the "Cornerstone Speech". I've also read much post-war "lost cause" apologia, which I find to be of dissonance with what was given for reasons antebellum.

No, I don't like what the actual Confederate government stated and died for, because the only real variations in their governing Constitution from the one they were attempting to unilaterally withdraw from dealt with maintaining human bondage. (Save one that I wish was in the original Constitution: Article I, Sec 20 Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title.)

That said, we’ve beaten this to death.

Hey, nothing more fun than a little necrophillic equine flagelation!

[LexBaird]

You didn't give a date for the South Carolina legislation you quoted, but if you look it up I believe you will find that the three year period you spoke of expired before the construction of Sumter was ever proposed.

IIRC, that legislation was 1805, and refered to the sites of Ft. Moultrie and other existing coastal fortifications. They were subsequently maintained by the US. The proposal to build Sumter came in the wake of the War of 1812, when Charlstonians felt that the existing defense works were inadeqate against foreign powers, and pushed for the Federal govt. to beef up harbor defense. That's why they were willing to cede the site of Sumter in 1836 for free and extinguish civilian claims (which were a scam).

In any event, clauses reserving rights on lands ceded to the US govt. for fortifications wouldn't be legally valid, under the US Constitution's Article I, Sec 8: "...To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, ... over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings..." Though the "purchase" of the site of Sumter involved no exchange of money, it was clearly gifted and there was a grant of title to the Federal govt. South Carolina quitted all claim.

[LexBaird]

Nearly 800 replies later, and I still don’t know what “The South Shall Rise Again” means.

As near as I can tell, it's like Linus, sitting in the pumpkin patch every Nov. 1st, crying out "Just wait 'til next year!" Total faith in a self-constructed myth.

[TexConfederate1861]

If Sherman had got what HE deserved, he would have been swinging from the end of a well-deserved rope.

[wardaddy]

funny how the US military gets slammed today for even hinting at doing abroad what Sherman did to my hometown.

he did offer good terms though

[TexConfederate1861]

Kind of funny that “God” didn’t punish Israel for keeping slaves......

[TexConfederate1861]

Actually, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain is one of my heros.
And I would BLEED Southron if I was cut......

[TexConfederate1861]

In 1861, blacks WEREN’T considered equal in any way, North or South. (And AFTERWARDS)......

[jgilbert63]

Ney is an ‘idiot’ in the truest sense of the word.

The Confederate States of America seceded from the union over issues of states’ rights and an out-of-control federal government (sound familiar?).

Shortly after Lincoln’s election, Congress passed the highly protectionist Morrill tariffs.

That’s when the South seceded, setting up a new government. Their constitution was nearly identical to the U.S. Constitution except that it outlawed protectionist tariffs, business handouts and mandated a two-thirds majority vote for all spending measures.

SLAVERY WAS NOT THE ISSUE.

Furthermore, the Union was not on a great crusade to end slavery during the Civil War. Lincoln was soley concerned about the preservation of the Union. The abolition of slavery was just a fortunate by-product of the whole affair.

Lincoln’s quotes and writings were replete with references stating that slavery was not his concern during the war.

In President Lincoln’s first inaugural address, he said, “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so.”

In an 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune editor Horace Greeley, Lincoln said, “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery.”

The politically correct crowd uses this issue to race-bait and to try and further their leftist unconstitutional agenda. If they were truly concerned about a flag representing slavery, they would be up in arms over the flying of the US flag. The institution of slavery existed far longer under the US flag than it did under the Confederate flag. I don’t see this uproar over the US flag, thus letting me know the issue is politically motivated and not based on principle.

(Some info courtesy of a Walter Williams article: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams120298.asp )

[Lee'sGhost]

Indeed!

[Non-Sequitur]

If Sherman had got what HE deserved, he would have been swinging from the end of a well-deserved rope.

Instead he got a third star, command of the army, and died with the respect of his peers. Funny how life winds up.

[Non-Sequitur]

The Confederate States of America seceded from the union over issues of states’ rights and an out-of-control federal government (sound familiar?).

In the 80 years prior to the rebellion the South had dominated all branches of the government. It it was out-of-control then it's because Southern leaders made it so.

Their constitution was nearly identical to the U.S. Constitution except that it outlawed protectionist tariffs, business handouts and mandated a two-thirds majority vote for all spending measures.

And yet one of the first acts of the confederate congress was to enact a tariff that was protectionist in nature. That constitution also guaranteed that no state could outlaw slavery and specifically protected slave imports. Some improvement.

SLAVERY WAS NOT THE ISSUE.

Not for the North, no. It was for the Southern leaders, and the single most important reason for their rebellion.

(Some info courtesy of a Walter Williams article...

Oh Lord. Why not quote Tommy DiLorenzo or the Kennedy brothers while you're at it. Can't quote the Southern leaders of the time because they'll disagree with you.