Posted on 05/24/2007 6:03:30 AM PDT by Rebeleye
...he was stunned to see two large Confederate flags flying from trucks...emblazoned with the words "The South Shall Rise Again." I'm stunned, too, that people still think it is cool to fly this flag. Our society should bury these flags -- not flaunt them...because the Confederate flag symbolizes racial tyranny to so many... ...This flag doesn't belong on city streets, in videos or in the middle of civil discussion. It belongs in our past -- in museums and in history books -- along with the ideas it represents.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
I've read a fair amount of Davis's speeches and writings and seen nothing that indicated that Davis ever had more than a passing knowledge of the Constitution. The 10th Amendment talks of powers delegated to the United States AND powers prohibited to the states. Powers to approve changes in status were powers delegated to the United States. Actions that had a negative impact on the other states were actions denied to the states. Implied in both of these is unilateral secession.
I daresay he's certainly a better constitutional scholar than you.
The 10th Amendment talks of powers delegated to the United States AND powers prohibited to the states. Powers to approve changes in status were powers delegated to the United States. Actions that had a negative impact on the other states were actions denied to the states. Implied in both of these is unilateral secession.
For an opposing view more eloquent than I could express, here's a presentation to Congress about the Tenth Amendment: Pilon Statement
Also, let's review statements by various Constitution ratification conventions.
South Carolina: "This Convention doth also declare, that no section or paragraph of the said Constitution warrants a construction that the states do not retain every power not expressly relinquished by them, and vested in the general government of the Union.
New York: "That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whenever it should become necessary to their happiness, that every power, jurisdiction and right which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several States, or to their respective State governments, to whom they may have granted the same; and that those clauses in the said Constitution, which declare that Congress shall not have or exercise certain powers, do not imply that Congress is entitled to any powers not given by the said Constitution; but such clauses are to be construed either as exceptions to certain specified powers or as inserted merely for greater caution."
Rhode Island: "That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness."
Virginia: "The delegates do, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will."
North Carolina proposed amendment: "1. That each state in the Union shall respectively retain every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Constitution delegated to the Congress of the United States, or to the departments of the federal government."
Massachusetts proposed amendment: "First, That it be explicitly declared that all Powers not expressly delegated by the aforesaid Constitution are reserved to the several States to be by them exercised."
New Hampshire proposed amendment: "I. That it be explicitly declared that all powers not expressly and particularly delegated by the aforesaid Constitution, are reserved to the several States, to be by them exercised."
You trust a president that had just flip-flopped about evacuating the fort and tried to sucker South Carolina by sending an unsigned letter claiming he would only send in supplies?
Because I went and forgot to get my Ph.D. in history, smartass.
You got one? You write 'em.
What you mean is that his opinion, and the other opininons you posted on what the Constitution means, are more in tune with your opinions. That doesn't mean they're better.
A gross overstatement of the circumstances, but on the other hand why should Lincoln had trusted the peaceful intentions of the confederates when every action they had made to date had been desinged to only escalate the tensions? If there was no reason for trust on either side then Lincoln was leaving the matter of war up to them. Just as he said he would in his inaugural address.
Yes lets. Four of the statements make the assumption that only those powers expressly reserved to Congress or denied to the states. You quoted your Constitutional expert, Jefferson Davis, let me quote mine. Chief Justice John Marshall, certainly no Constitutional slouch himself, wrote: "Among the enumerated powers, we do not find that of establishing a bank or creating a corporation. But there is no phrase in the instrument which, like the articles of confederation, excludes incidental or implied powers; and which requires that everything granted shall be expressly and minutely described. Even the 10th amendment, which was framed for the purpose of quieting the excessive jealousies which had been excited, omits the word "expressly," and declares only that the powers "not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people"; thus leaving the question, whether the particular power which may become the subject of contest has been delegated to the one government, or prohibited to the other, to depend on a fair construction of the whole instrument. The men who drew and adopted this amendment had experienced the embarrassments resulting from the insertion of this word in the articles of confederation, and probably omitted it to avoid those embarrassments. A constitution, to contain an accurate detail of all the subdivisions of which its great powers will admit, and of all the means by which they may be carried into execution, would partake of the prolixity of a legal code, and could scarcely be embraced by the human mind. It would probably never be understood by the public. Its nature, therefore, requires, that only its great outlines should be marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves. That this idea was entertained by the framers of the American constitution, is not only to be inferred from the nature of the instrument, but from the language. Why else were some of the limitations, found in the ninth section of the 1st article, introduced? It is also, in some degree, warranted by their having omitted to use any restrictive term which might prevent its receiving a fair and just interpretation. In considering this question, then, we must never forget that it is a constitution we are expounding."
In three of the cases you mentioned, their wording of the 10th Amendment was not adopted. In South Carolina's statement, their assumption that only expressly listed powers were reserved to Congress or denied to the states was simply wrong.
I think that Madison is more explicit here:
"The conduct of S. Carolina has called forth not only the question of nullification; but the more formidable one of secession. It is asked whether a State by resuming the sovereign form in which it entered the Union, may not of right withdraw from it at will. As this is a simple question whether a State, more that an individual, has a right to violate its engagements, it would seem that it might be safely left to answer itself. But the countenance given to the claim shows that it cannot be so lightly dismissed. The natural feelings which laudably attach the people composing a State, to its authority and importance, are at present too much excited by the unnatural feelings, with which they have been inspired against their brethren of other States, not to expose them, to the danger of being misled into erroneous views of the nature of the Union and the interest they have in it. One thing at least seems to be too clear to be questioned; that whilst a State remains within the Union it cannot withdraw its citizens from the operation of the Constitution laws of the Union. In the event of an actual secession without the Consent of the Co-States, the course to be pursued by these involves questions painful in the discussion of them. God grant that the menacing appearances, which obtruded it may not be followed by positive occurrences requiring the more painful task of deciding them!"
And here Madison gets more to the point:
"An inference from the doctrine that a single State has the right to secede at will from the rest is that the rest would have an equal right to secede from it; in other words, to turn it, against its will, out of its union with them. Such a doctrine would not, till of late been palatable anywhere, and nowhere less so than where it is now most contended for."
And in his letter to Danial Webster, Madison minces no words:
"I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession." But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy."
The old Federalist was a sharp cookie (he was my blood cousin, after all), but he left the door open to ambiguity, something I wouldn't have done.
With apologies to Nixon's critics, would you buy a used car from Lincoln?
Clear as the position must seem, that the federal powers are derived from the Constitution, and from that alone, the committee are not unapprised of a late doctrine, which opens another source of federal powers, not less extensive and important, than it is new and unexpected. The examination of this doctrine will be most conveniently connected with a review of a succeeding resolution. The committee satisfy themselves here with briefly remarking, that in all the cotemporary discussions and comments which the Constitution underwent, it was constantly justified and recommended, on the ground, that the powers not given to the government, were withheld from it; and that, if any doubt could have existed on this subject, under the original text of the Constitution, it is removed, as far as words could remove it, by the 12th amendment, now a part of the Constitution, which expressly declares, "that the powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
Our present 10th amendment was, of course, the 12th Amendment on the original submission of the Bill of Rights. Two of the original amendments did not pass.
It appears to your committee to be a plain principle, founded in common sense, illustrated by common practice, and essential to the nature of compacts, that, where resort can be had to no tribunal, superior to the authority of the parties, the parties themselves must be the rightful judges in the last resort, whether the bargain made has been pursued or violated. The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the states, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority of the Constitution, that it rests on this legitimate and solid foundation. The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity, that there can be no tribunal above their authority, to decide in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and, consequently, that, as the. parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.
My countrymen, one and all, think calmly and well, upon this whole subject. Nothing valuable can be lost by taking time. If there be an object to hurry any of you, in hot haste, to a step which you would never take deliberately, that object will be frustrated by taking time; but no good object can be frustrated by it. Such of you as are now dissatisfied still have the old Constitution unimpaired, and, on the sensitive point, the laws of your own framing under it; while the new administration will have no immediate power, if it would, to change either. If it were admitted that you who are dissatisfied, hold the right side in the dispute, there still is no single good reason for precipitate action. Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty.
In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."
I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
As for meeting with the commissioners, I would expect that supplying the fort with food fall under the "matters and subjects interesting to both nations" clause, which could only be brought up once recognition had been granted. In other words, once Lincoln had surrendered. You need to read the instructions and realize that they were not an offer to negotiate but an ultimatum demanding recognition before anything else could be done.
Ambiguity? Or interpretation? And if the founders had realized that the Constitution needed to be interpreted in light of the founders intention then isn't the fact that a majority of the court needs to agree on that interpretation a valid safeguard?
It may help, but the Court can and does make decisions along purely political/ideological lines rather than what the founders intended.
True. But what alternative is there that wouldn't be even more inclined to make those decisions based on purely political/ideological/regional/social lines? Any system dependent on people will have it's flaws and abuses. The idea is to minimize those as much as possible.
Possibly not. But it's also clear that he would have classified the Southern actions as revolution and certainly understood the position of the federal government in trying to suppress it. He certainly would not have classified their actions as sanctioned by the Constitution.
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