The Case for Bombing Iran

Commentary ^ | June, '07 | Norman Podhoretz

[T.L.Sink]

Podhoretz thoughtfully examines all the conventional pros and cons of attacking Iran. He quotes Bernard Lewis, the greatest authority of our time on the Islamic world: "MAD, mutual assured destruction, [was effective] right through the Cold War. Both sides had nuclear weapons. Neither side used them, because both sides knew the other would retaliate in kind. This will not work with a religious fanatic [like Ahmadinejad]. For him, mutual assured destruction is not a deterrent, it is an inducement. We know already that [Iran's leaders] do not give a damn about killing their own people in great numbers. We have seen it again and again. In the final scenario, and this applies all the more strongly if they kill large numbers of thir own people, they are doing them a favor. They are giving them a quick free pass to heaven and all its delights."

[kabar]

The 'facts on the ground' are not your friend. There may be groups of disgruntled youth leading some sort of opposition, but remember that it is the 'young' that rallied behind, and continue to rally behind Ahmadinejad, who organized the Basij brigades (children serving as human mine sweepers during the Iran/Iraq War) and retains much of his political power due to the Basij.

Ahmadinejad is not popular and many boycotted the election that put him in power. And the mullahs are having major problems with the economy.

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran increased the price of gasoline by 25 percent Tuesday, faced by the same quandary that has sent prices at U.S. pumps soaring: Its lack of refinery capacity means it must buy gas on the world market. Public discontent has been growing in Iran in recent months as housing prices have doubled and prices for basic goods have tripled since last summer. Many drivers were surprised Tuesday morning to find gas prices had risen overnight to 38 cents a gallon from 30 cents, part of a major plan by the government to reduce state subsidies on gasoline.

Ahmadinejad is trying to divert public attention from what is happening domestically by creating an phony external threat. We would be helping him now by attacking Iran militarily.

As for 'national suicide', embracing the Carteresque doctrine of 'don't use military force' virtually guarantees national suicide.

I was referring to the Iranians. The Mullahs don't want to commit national suicide by overtly attacking the US or Israel or Europe. They want to maintain their power at all costs.

a.) Qom is only an 'important religious symbol' because the Islamofreaks believe it to be so. You know and I know that it is just one more fake idol of an ideological death cult.

We would be fools to "nuke" Qom. It would be seen as an attack against Islam worldwide.

Who gives a damn? The world condemns America every day and every night for any and all perceived 'offenses' whether deserved or not. You need to stop worrying about what the rest of the world thinks about us, and start promoting the idea that the rest of the world had damn well better start worrying about what AMERICA thinks of THEM.

We don't need to alienate the rest of the world by launching a unilateral nuclear attack against Iran. There are other ways to achieve our objectives.

Uh huh. And what do you think is going to happen when Tehran acquires even a rudimentary nuclear capability?

Iran still needs to sell its oil. It is the main source of its national income.

It's not going to happen. That's why we should have nuked Iran last week. Truman didn't worry about what the world would think of us after nuking the Japanese in 1945, and neither should we worry about it today regarding Iran. This is an ideological struggle to the death. Do we want to win, or do we want to die? Choose wisely.

Iran is neither Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. It can never defeat us militarily. As I mentioned, the greatest threat they pose to use is their sponsorship of militant islamic terrorism. We cannot win the WOT without regime change in Iran. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that objective. Having lived in Iran 1977-79, including during the hijacking of the Iranian Revolution by Khomeini, I have my own firsthand experience to base my opinion. Iran was and will be again our ally. We should not allow the mullahs to bait us into an ill-timed military attack and bail them out of their growing domestic crisis. There are covert ways we can hasten their demise.

[JackDanielsOldNo7]

There is no reason to bomb Iran yet. What have they done to us? I am not saying wait till a nuke hits but our military is very thin right now.

I will go ahead and put on the flame suit.

[jveritas]

It is exactly what you are thinking.

[Paperdoll]

Oh, I don’t fault Bush for lack of nerve - I fault Globalist Bush because he will use any means to further his agenda, which is NOT in the best interest of a sovereign and free America. The Bush goal is One World Government. And it looks like he’s getting it!

[null and void]

Oh? What am I thinking?

[mkjessup]

Ahmadinejad is not popular and many boycotted the election that put him in power. And the mullahs are having major problems with the economy.

The 'election' was a farce anyway, you actually think Iranian elections are 'free and fair'? LOL

As for the mullahs having major problems with the economy, it doesn't appear to be holding up their drive for nuclear weapons, nor is it inhibiting their proxy war against our troops in Iraq, nor is there any let up in their state sponsored support for terrorism around the world.

Ahmadinejad is trying to divert public attention from what is happening domestically by creating an phony external threat. We would be helping him now by attacking Iran militarily.

Ahmadinejad doesn't give a hoot in Hell about public opinion, he's in charge, he has a political base, and the mullahs are happy to have him leading the way while they hide and stay out of sight.

As for economic difficulties in Iran as reported by HeraldNet.Com, it means nothing. Iran is not a capitalist democracy in the sense of a Western nation, if the Iranian people suffer hardship, they are told to bite the bullet, shut up, or they get a visit from the mullah's thugs in the dead of the night. That's the reality of what's happening 'on the ground' in Iran, and guess what?

That's pretty much what's been going on since the Assahollah seized power in '79.

We would be fools to "nuke" Qom. It would be seen as an attack against Islam worldwide.

Did you somehow miss 9/11 when 19 Islamic terrorists led the opening attack against US?!? Perhaps you need to check out following passages from the Quran:

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”

Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”

Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”

Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”

Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Qur’an:7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.

[with a big thank you to Freeper 'DennisW']

We don't need to alienate the rest of the world by launching a unilateral nuclear attack against Iran. There are other ways to achieve our objectives.

Those 'other ways' consisting of the dubious approach of 'covert action', and/or inflicting unnecessary casualties on our OWN troops by going in with mostly conventional weapons, or perhaps you mean (har har) "diplomacy"?. Lookee here bud, America's goal is not to win some global popularity contest because we desperately need to be liked, America's goal is (or should be!) to defend our way of life, and that way of life is threatened by Islamofascism, and at this point in time, Iran is leading the charge. We have the means to wipe their asses out tomorrow morning, and we should do it. Neither Russia or the ChiComs in Beijing are going to risk a general nuclear exchange with us over Iran, they'll shriek, wail and scream bloody murder, but when faced with the option to up the ante and risk further American retaliation on THEIR vital interests?

Uh uh, they'll fold their cards. The United States is the only nation on Earth to use nuclear weapons in warfare, and it's time our friends and enemies alike got a reminder of that historical fact. Iran is that reminder, and we need to stop wasting time about it.

Iran still needs to sell its oil. It is the main source of its national income.

The mullahs and Ahmadinejad don't care. They are in the grip of Islamic 'end times ideology' and they believe that by bringing on armageddon, it will only hasten their entry into 'allah's paradise', in the meantime, they are going to continue to push the envelope to see how much they can get away with, and as Podhoretz pointed out, one of their most recent tests of Western resolve was the taking of those UK sailors hostage, and Britain showed itself to be utterly neutered and powerless. You think that's a good thing?

Iran is neither Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. It can never defeat us militarily.

It's not about defeating us militarily, it's about a regime in Iran that is the classic definition of the 'inmates taking over the asylum', and if they achieve a nuclear weapons capability, the world situation is going to be 100 times worse than anything that might have happened in World War II with Germany and/or Japan. Believe that.

As I mentioned, the greatest threat they pose to us is their sponsorship of militant islamic terrorism. We cannot win the WOT without regime change in Iran. We just disagree on how best to accomplish that objective. Having lived in Iran 1977-79, including during the hijacking of the Iranian Revolution by Khomeini, I have my own firsthand experience to base my opinion. Iran was and will be again our ally.

Someone who lived in Germany from 1937 until 1939 might have made the same statement, and while Germany did indeed become our ally, it wasn't until after the whole damn country was flattened by strategic bombing.

It's a quaint notion that Iran might return to those pre-mullah days when the Shah of Iran was in fact one of our best friends in the region and a force for stability. But your faith in Iranian society to do an about face, no matter how fast or how slow, is likely going to be misplaced because that nation is no friend of ours, the regime currently in charge is not going to go quietly, and the only way Iran is going to start behaving itself is for the United States to slap it down and HARD. If that means carpet bombing the damn place from one end to the other, so be it - they will have brought it on themselves.

We should not allow the mullahs to bait us into an ill-timed military attack and bail them out of their growing domestic crisis. There are covert ways we can hasten their demise.

Your faith in covert operations is misplaced.

The stakes are too high to trust the CIA to do in Iran what they helped to accomplish in 1953. In this case, lightning will NOT strike twice.

I say fuel up the B-1s and B-2s.

[afnamvet]

I mostly agree with your assessment. I would add that a declaration of war be declared if/when an attack is warranted. We must respond if a nuclear threat is made against Israel.

I doubt we will see a coaltion of countries to join us in this effort.

[T.L.Sink]

You’re right - and, in fact, Podhoretz deals with just that issue in the article. That is, the “feel good” matter of a young, anti-mullah Iranian population. So, some dream on! Meanwhile, in reality the enrichment process continues.

[Tennessean4Bush]

Utter nonsense. The idea that the Iranian people are 'on our side' is absurd when one considers that the mullahs have had 28 years to brainwash the populace and purge any serious and lingering pro-American sentiment within their society, let alone within whatever passes for a 'government'.

You are over-stating your case. In fact, most of the Iranian people are pro western if not pro American. Surveys conducted by the Iranian government revealed this several years ago. Nevertheless, I think waiting on them to overthrow Iran is a fool's game. They may never wrest power away from the mullahs and in the meantime the clock ticks.

[kabar]

As for the mullahs having major problems with the economy, it doesn't appear to be holding up their drive for nuclear weapons, nor is it inhibiting their proxy war against our troops in Iraq, nor is there any let up in their state sponsored support for terrorism around the world.

If the economy collapses, the mullahs will go the way of Soviets. The country will implode.

Ahmadinejad doesn't give a hoot in Hell about public opinion, he's in charge, he has a political base, and the mullahs are happy to have him leading the way while they hide and stay out of sight.

The people know who runs the country. It is not a matter of public opinion but public action. The political base erodes quickly once the society starts to fail. The Shah found that out.

Iran is not a capitalist democracy in the sense of a Western nation, if the Iranian people suffer hardship, they are told to bite the bullet, shut up, or they get a visit from the mullah's thugs in the dead of the night. That's the reality of what's happening 'on the ground' in Iran, and guess what?

LOL. The economic difficulties are not only being reported by Hardnet.com. Iran is not that kind of police state. There have been plenty of demonstrations and opposition. The bazaaris have long been considered the sine qua non of the regime's hold on power and still are. They were part of the original coalition along with the mullahs, intelligentsia and exiles that took down the Shah. Khomeini hijacked the Iranian Revolution in much the same way that Lenin did. The current government is not that secure and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei worsening health will set off a battle of succession, which may result in a battle between Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad.

Did you somehow miss 9/11 when 19 Islamic terrorists led the opening attack against US?!? Perhaps you need to check out following passages from the Quran:

Nuking Qom is not the solution. You are madder than a March hare.

Lookee here bud, America's goal is not to win some global popularity contest because we desperately need to be liked, America's goal is (or should be!) to defend our way of life, and that way of life is threatened by Islamofascism, and at this point in time, Iran is leading the charge.

It has nothing to do with winning a global popularity contest. Hell, we wouldn't have any domestic support from the American people to launch a pre-emptive NUCLEAR ATTACK against Iran. What you are suggesting will never happen. We have to deal with the real world and not the world of of fantasy you seem to live in.

The mullahs and Ahmadinejad don't care.

Don't believe that nonsense. These people want survive. They convince the other poor fools including women and children to strap bombs on to themselves and sacrifice for the faith. You can bet that they won't nor will their children.

as Podhoretz pointed out, one of their most recent tests of Western resolve was the taking of those UK sailors hostage, and Britain showed itself to be utterly neutered and powerless. You think that's a good thing?

I'll leave that up to the UK to decide. The British Navy is going down to 25 capital ships. They really don't have the means to take on Iran in Iran. The capture of the Brits was probably pushed by the RG who wanted one of their agents back who was being held in Iraq. He was released just before the UK sailors were.

Someone who lived in Germany from 1937 until 1939 might have made the same statement, and while Germany did indeed become our ally, it wasn't until after the whole damn country was flattened by strategic bombing.

Iran isn't Nazi Germany. It has no ability to project power on a regional basis let alone a global level. It couldn't defeat the Iraqis in their 8 year war. Their military is a joke. Again, the only real danger they pose is giving WMD to non-state actor terrorists and making it difficult for us to trace back the source of the weapons so we can retaliate. It also gives them some ability to bully the region, but we will be there to counter it. The Iranian government views nuclear weapons as an insurance policy against our involvement in their internal affairs.

Your faith in covert operations is misplaced. The stakes are too high to trust the CIA to do in Iran what they helped to accomplish in 1953. In this case, lightning will NOT strike twice. I say fuel up the B-1s and B-2s.

Dream on Captain of the keyboard. You have the luxury of being Walter Mitty. The rest of us have to deal with reality.

[dennisw]

The warm months are best to hit Iran’s nukes. GWBush may be too weak politically to pull it off. We shall see. Winter is a bad time because heating oil could spike upward. Everyone is chicken to hit a major oil producer hard. The world needs all the oil it can get these days. Iran knows this. The Ayatollahs have been wise guys for years with their use of proxies, terror meddling in Iraq. I’d love to see them given a haircut

[dennisw]

Iran is a case of pay me now or pay me later. The price will be much higher later

[Marine_Uncle]

Well hells bells. Can't fault that correction. The guy however is a quite serious person. He appears to really believe the crap about a hidden iman from the 12th century will raise out of the well, once the world goes into complete chaos.
That is the problem with him and in general the Shia that go along with that fairly tale. They believe they are carrying out the will of allah. Of course at the same time he is a mostly ignorant ape, who has little knowledge of world history by all indications. Again very dangerous. But I say nothing most of us understand about the goon at this point.

[Marine_Uncle]

Thanks FARS. I will check out the two URL references.

[JasonC]

The domestic opposition isn't doing diddly. Your fine sentiment is a recipe for inaction and inaction means millions of incinerated people within a decade. Not acceptable.

[null and void]

Yeah. Odd that their prophet got his inspiration in a cave.

And that the superduper imam has spent several centuries in a pit.

Here's a hint, guys:

REAL Prophets climb mountains to be closer to God, they don't crawl into a hole to listen to the hissings of The Serpent.

Oh, and Saviors descend from Heaven, they don't slither up from Hell...

[Marine_Uncle]

I believe I had read these two articles by Peter some time back but always good to refresh ones brain cells. He does a good job of connecting many of the various elements, as apposed to attempting to make points on one given aspect of the Iranian problem.
The diverse scenario one finds Iran in cannot simply addressed by unloading a number of deep penetrators on a few of their known underground facilities.
The Mullahs and the RG must be neutralized, it is that simple, along with all that actively support them. And surely the Ahmadinajad and his supporters outside the sphere of the Mullacracy must also be kicked out of the way and tried for crimes against humanity along with the Mullahs and their underlings.
Some form of pro westernized democracy must be installed and allowed to grow.
How all this is done, obviouse to those that attempt to think "beyond their noses", is not a simple task. Peters outlines some distinct possible scenarios.
But what does the CIA, NSA, DoS, DOD and other's with a hand in the pot as well as our European counterparts, decide upon may as usual be simply to antiseptic. No one wants to get their hands dirty.

[kabar]

The domestic opposition isn't doing diddly. Your fine sentiment is a recipe for inaction and inaction means millions of incinerated people within a decade. Not acceptable.

Where did I call for inaction? If you equate inaction to not launching a preemptive nuclear attack on Iran, then I am for inaction. Otherwise, I want us to do what we seem to be doing now, i.e., covertly working for regime change in Iran. The only problem is that ABC decided to make it public.

[Marine_Uncle]

Of course Satan set up a system to make sure billions would not have a clue to as what you say.

[null and void]

He certainly earned his title as The Great Deceiver, didn’t he?