Communist symbol returns to Russian Army's flag

AuBC News ^ | Saturday, May 5, 2007. 12:06pm (AEST)

[james500]

Russia's Parliament has voted to restore the communist-era hammer and sickle to the official flag of the Russian Army.

It is expect President Vladimir Putin will ratify the move in time for next week's commemorations marking the end of World War II in Europe.

If so, Russians will again have the Soviet version of the victory banner for next week's Victory in Europe parade in Moscow.

For many Russians, especially the elderly, its symbolism is immense.

The red banner, together with the hammer, sickle and a white star, was the one raised on the Reichstag roof on May 1, 1945.

Millions of people all over the world know that photograph, but in Russia its significance is much deeper, with the Soviet victory over fascism in World War II remaining something seen in almost religious terms.

[RasterMaster]

Saddam was “elected” with that kind of “approval rating”....so was Fidel. I’m sure Ahmadamnutjob garners all the “votes” in his country as well.

That the best you got, professor?

[RasterMaster]

It matters not what your communist Russian friends think...It’s what the DO and have done for the last 100 years that shows that the people (or their lapdog PR spin-meisters) cannot be trusted as far as they could be tossed across a room.

[spanalot]

“And Putin had nothing to do with that. So, now that I have established my “bona fides” you are incorrect”

The russians killed far more Ukrainians than the germans and you are not fooling anyone here.

[JadeEmperor]

"Is the topic your family, communists, Nazis or Jews? You are twisting more than a licorice stick. What to Jewish WWII vets have to do with disgarded communist symbols today?"

Read my reply again, if you have severe reading comprehension problems. I'm tired of throwing certain hard, round object produced by a certain kind of shellfish before certain non-rumigating farm animals. What a waste of time.

[M. Espinola]

"I highly doubt anyone here is Putin."

I did not state Putin was here, but a few of his ardent supporters are, issuing their anti-American comments as though 'reported' by Pravda.

Go read the works of Russian historians

The subject at hand is not Russian historians. We are dealing with the current Putin régime and the most fanatical spokesmen for that repressive régime still lurking on FR...such as yourself for instance.

"Those who think differently are to be liquidated."

Are you paraphrasing, or directly quoting KGB Putin?

"I am not an ethnic Russian. My family is where I live, hence, I stay here."

Where is that do tell?

"I suggest you participate in a Russian language forum."

Well, I suggest you return to Moscow and stay there, Nashi clone.

"How many times have you been to Russia?

Under the current threatening situation with the Neo-Soviet KGB controlled police state, the sole mode of travel to Russia should be in one of these .......

[JadeEmperor]

"No need to compare...the USSR (”Russia”) is just as communist as it ever was. They are just not as open about it as they once were. It will take more than PR for anything to change."

What? How can you make a valid comparison without actually comparing in detail the Russian society that is today vs. USSR circa, let say 1982? What reference point do you use? Or do you just go by superficial indicators, such as Putin's recent anti-Western rethoric? I take it you'd not trust he reveals his true nature by anything "positive" that he may ever say in public, then why trust him to do the same when he says "negative" things? "C'mon McFly, think, think!"

As I said before, you're not interested in facts, only in what suits or doesn't suit your rigid dogma. And you're willing to burn at the stake (as evidenced by your exchange with instantgratification) any "heretic" attempting to challenge it.

You think like a Soviet and you don't even know it :)

Let me give you just a couple of examples about the vast difference between the Russia that is today vs. USSR I was born and grew up in.

For instance, back in Soviet days it was simply illegal, punishable by law, to conduct just about any form of private enterprise. Even the term "private property" did not exist in the legal sense, the closest term that existed was "personal belongings".

In the Soviet Union it was illegal and punishable by law to purchase an item at a government store (all the stores were government owned) at a government mandanted price and then resell it at a higher price for a profit (such as what many black marketeers had done with various "deficit" items). Those apprehended doing so would be charged with "economic speculation".

It was even illegal to produce something yourself, by your own effort, and then sell it for a profit. There was a folk singer Alexander Novikov who was sent to prison in the early 80s simply for making homebrew amplifiers/recording equipment and then selling it (for a modest profit) to underground musicians and just about anybody else who wanted one. They could not charge him with anything else (the real reason was his politically-motivated songs) so they charged him with "economic speculation".

Mere posession of a foreign currency for an average citizen was a crime.

Just in case you forgot, the Iron Curtain was up and there was no internet (even if it were to exist in present form at the time) no foreign media, most foreign broadcasts (at least all in Russian) were jammed. There was no free travel outside the USSR. To even be allowed to travel to the Warsaw Pact countries an average Ivan would have to undergo a lengthy process of background checks and KGB/Party approvals with the presumption of denial. To go vacation say... to East Germany would be a once in a life time experience for most who were not KGB or Soviet armed forces stationed there (and for most it never happened). It was a dream unattainable. "It was almost the West".

None of the above grim Soviet realities exist today. (I can give many more examples, but I'll stop and let you digest what I have said so far.)

Today Russians may travel freely wherever they can afford as long as they follow whatever visa requirements there may exist in the country of their destination. Many middle class Muscovites and St. Peterbugians actually go vacationing every year in places like Turkey, Thailand, Egypt to name a few. It is rather affordable. And wealthier types go to finest places in Europe. In the past 7 years many people in Russia have not only the ability to travel, but also money to do it.

There are no more "economic speculation" crimes. Many shops and businesses in Russia are privately owned. That is not so say, mind you, that private property is fully respected or protected in the Western sense of the word in Russia; either from the organized crime or from the government itself - but still, a stark comparison to what it used to be like in the Soviet days! Anyone who lived under the old system can tell the difference.

There is no Iron Curtain keeping the information flow from the Western media, books, movies, etc. Heck, in the old years you could get in trouble for owning, buying or selling Western rock records, certain books, etc.

Most of them were not even openly available, and neither was Western cinema. Not the case today.

Even if these were the only differences between 1970s-1980s Soviet Union and today's Russia, it would still be a stark contrast between the two societies.

Even with the clear authoritarian trend that Putin is showing of late, to equate the two would be an insult to all the real life "dissidents" and the like who challenged the old system.

And until most or all of the cornerstone Soviet realities (I can name many more if you ask) are reinstated or restored, until then I say today's Russia, for all the faults of it, is not USSR.

I do not idolize Putin in any way shape or form (and I dare you to prove otherwise with actual quotes from yours truly!) but there are several degrees of control between the worst of Putin's authoritarism and what the old Soviet Union was like. Until the two realities overwhelmingly coincide, they are not, I repeat, not one and the same.

[RasterMaster]

It’s is you who have reading problems - maybe your spectacles have become foggy from the methane your omitting.

The subject of the thread, which you have been unable to stick to, is Communist symbols coming back to the USSR (nothing has changed except the name). Since you cannot defend communism or it’s symbols, or the communist Putin, it is best you move on (back to DU or wherever it is commie-loving trolls come from). Good riddance.

[JadeEmperor]

"I did not state Putin was here, but a few of his ardent supporters are, issuing their anti-American comments as though 'reported' by Pravda."

Even though the reply was not directed to me I'm curious, where there was anything "anti-American" posted by instantgratification on this thread? I challenge you to prove your point. Also, I fail to see a single post where he supports Putin, implicitly or explicitly. You, sir, are a demagogue.

[RasterMaster]

“Communism lite”, which is what you describe, is STILL COMMUNISM....regardless of what pretty little nametag you would like to call it, and Putin is a thug. You will likely find more friends amongst the allies of communism, the DEMOCRATS.

Since you cannot defend the symbols of communist thugs, your go into a diatribe regarding how much has changed. It is what has stayed the same that is under discussion, not the other way around.

[RasterMaster]

You and your co-conspirator won’t find friends here, move on, back to your DUmpsters, trolls.

[JadeEmperor]

"The subject of the thread, which you have been unable to stick to, is Communist symbols coming back to the USSR (nothing has changed except the name)"

I've been casting pearls trying to point to the fact that in this particular case the use of the symbol has little with "return to USSR", as many here seem impressed, but much more to do with the victory in WWII. The original article claimed that the symbol was reinstated for officialuse in the current Russian army. I quoted articles to show that this is not the case and the use of the symbol concerns merely official celebration of WWII victory.

You've been denying that and also denying that USSR played a key role in the victory over Nazism and also that their role in that effort should be respected (regardless of other very negative things that the Soviets have done).

In one of my previous comments I posted pictures of Russian Jews in Israel displaying the very same symbols, not because they are "commies" or wish USSR to return, but because to them it is symbolic of the defeat of Nazis. I recognize the symbol's significance for Russians in that regard. You failed to see the point.

Furthermore, the symbol never really left the Victory Banner, as I have already said - so its not like something else was used since 1991 and all of a sudden it was "brought back". It was still in use throughout the past decade - only now it has been officially recognized as such.

If still don't understand what was my original point, I rest my case. Some things are not for you to understand.

"it is best you move on (back to DU or wherever it is commie-loving trolls come from). Good riddance."

I don't take orders. I bet you regret the fact that you dont have your own version of the KGB at your disposal to suppress my dissenting opinion :)

[RasterMaster]

OUT OF YOUR OWN WORDS...now that I finally got you back on topic - you stated the symbols HAVE BEEN IN USE last 10 years and that is my assertion that communism has never been truly thrown under the bus.

Still a viable party and can easily make the comeback you say isn’t happening when all signs show otherwise.

[JadeEmperor]

"You and your co-conspirator won’t find friends here, move on, back to your DUmpsters, trolls."

Oh, the irony is precious. I know "instantgratification" no more than I know you personally, but it must appear to you if two random people share the same opposing viewpoint, which challenges your "orthodoxy" - there must be a conspiracy. Yes, a KGB plot ripe in the making. The Red Threat. Those Russki-born can't be trusted. Yes, we heard it all before. You would fit in the old USSR rather well, for you are possessed of a classic commie "witch hunter" mindset :) I for once appreciate the fact that none of the Americans I live, work and am friends with are anything like you. Although few, if any fit any definition of a "liberal". Good night.

[RasterMaster]

There is nothing “random” about your posts....and you reek of the DUmpster.

[Paperdoll]

If many more states do away with the Electoral College, it won’t be long before that crescent is also on our beloved red, white and blue! Thanks to George Soros & Company!

[Paperdoll]

Or a hammer and sickle!

[JadeEmperor]

"OUT OF YOUR OWN WORDS...now that I finally got you back on topic - you stated the symbols HAVE BEEN IN USE last 10 years and that is my assertion that communism has never been truly thrown under the bus. Still a viable party and can easily make the comeback you say isn’t happening when all signs show otherwise."

OK, let me try yet one more time. The bottom line is, I was and only defending the use of the Soviet symbol in a very narrow sense - in a WWII commemorative/historical use in Russia. I recognize the singificance of that symbol in that contex to the Russians who celebrate victory in WWII and also to the Russian/ex-Soviet veterans who fought in WWII (this is why I showed you the Israeli vets who wore their Soviet medals). Regardless of anything else, the use of the symbol in WWII commemorative context by Russia has little to do with the "return of Communism" - this is simply a part of their history.

Let me ask you then - what would be sufficient in your book for complete "decommunization" - in regard to this very same issue? Assume for the moment that ex-CPSU/KGB officials in Russia were prevented from holding public office (which is actually a good idea). What would you do with WWII symbols then?

What would you like to see with their WWII commemoration - use Russian Imperial tricolor only, instead of the Red flags with Hammer and Sickle? No "historic" units to march on VE day? Maybe even rewrite the history books to show some other flag fly over the Reichstag? That would be trying to rewrite history.

[RasterMaster]

"Assume for the moment that ex-CPSU/KGB officials in Russia were prevented from holding public office (which is actually a good idea). What would you do with WWII symbols then?"

When that happens, let me know and I will be better able to answer it then.

How should the Germans celebrate war service in WWI or WWII?

[M. Espinola]

"Russia has started reverting back to Soviet communism the day ole KGB man Putin went into office."

100% correct!

[M. Espinola]

"Even though the reply was not directed to me I'm curious.."

That's right it wasn't, so you and the other Kremlin crud 'instantgratification' go peddle your pro-Putin propaganda to a radical Dem forum. Maybe your Big Lie tactics will function on those which already hate America, and prefer the Neo-Soviet empire controlled by the Putin mafia.

Do not post anything to me again.